Just to add, the option they spoke about in the counter charge pod cast was to limit the number of times you can be down but not out, but that requires tracking another thing…
I agree that the rulebook should be more streamlined. Too often one has to look at many places to find out how something works.
Gamewise, IMHO, the main problem is really how long some models can hang on a last wound while being knocked down but not out. In our group, we are going to make a home rule that knocked-down models do not get a nerve test even when wounded by ranged attack. I think it would also help if the CS of melee attacks on knocked-down models would be increased by 2, not only by 1.
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Yes, I think we are in agreement here. I think by making down but not out only apply when a model hits zero (rather than -1), this would happen much less. I am also not adverse to the idea of removing the nerve test for shooters on knocked down models.
The game is great, it’s very much just tweaking that is needed in my opinion. I really hope something is going on in the background regarding a version 2. Firefight has shown how many of the vanguard ideas are good as it nicks a fair few of them!
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Don’t get me wrong, I always appreciate when people smarter than me try to improve games. Especially if Mantic listens.
Streamlining Vanguard? Yes, please!
Rewrite and reorganize the rulebook? Hell, yes!
Make it a ‘fantasy Deadzone’? No, thanks!
Deadzone is a great and fast game. KoW is massive, quite balanced, easy to learn and very well suited for competative play. Vanguard is much more ‘flavourful’. I hope it stays that way whilst beeing streamlined. I like different Mantic games because they are different and still (mostly) well written.
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Yes, I agree with this (though I question the “smarter than me” that you said!).
I’ve read through a lot of people’s opinions on the facebook group and on here and some want “fantasy deadzone”, but a long way from all (especially amongst those that currently play). I think the things I have commonly seen as issues now are:
- Speed play up a bit
- Sometimes hard to kill stuff
There are other things too but these come up a fair bit.
The first could be solved through some sort of change to the dice rolls. At the moment if you attack someone you have:
- Roll to hit
- They roll on armour
- (If required) They roll on nerve
A competitive roll combines 1 and 2 into a single event that could speed things up a little. Some rearrangement of the rule book would help massively. Fluff at the end, all the spells together, all the key words together (I know they are already).
Hindered charges simplified to “can you see them?” and walking into combat giving the opponent the chance to attack first removes the slightly annoying walking into combat mechanism
Making buying back fatigue more costly or impossible makes the choice to fatigue much more tactical and encourages use of command points for other things.
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I am not sure what you mean by this. My understanding is that there are no charges where you cannot see the charged model. I am also quite fine with walking to Engage and then Melee. You get 1 die less than when charging but you can attack a model that was not visible at the beginning of the Walk action. As far as the enemy got close enough that my model is able to walk to Engage, I think it is OK. You get closer to your enemy, no surprise they can attack you. What exactly is annoying on it.
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for those who want a Deadzone like fantasy game, maybe there should be another game as an updated Dungeon Crawler, like a mix between Deadzone and Dungeon Saga with a City/Dungeon fight theme
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An updated Dungeon Saga would be quite a stress test for my purse!
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So mainly I mean running as a long action then walking into combat as a fatigue action. It means a model with speed 5 has an effective “range” of 15" to engage. Enemy attacking first feels fair and thematic to me. Could also just ban walking into combat as a fatigue action, or, if fatigue can’t be cleared by points then it may be less of an issue.
You’re right about the charge and not being able to if you can’t see them. Whoops! But in general I feel “hindered charge” is one of the complexities I feel is unnecessary.
Can’t we just have one way to get into combat? And then have other rules that add dice?
I don’t want to have to remember too much in a Skirmish game. Never got on with Mordheim with roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to see if it hits him in the head, roll to see if his helmet protects him etc etc
if you run, then fatigue walk into combat, it’s not a charge, so you don’t get a free melee action. You’ll just be engaged. So the enemy will already get to fight first if they haven’t been activated yet, as they just activate and take a melee action.
It’s only if a run action itself gets you into combat that you get a free melee action.
As AlQuds says, you can walk (short) and then melee (short) as your two actions, if the walk gets you into combat. But it’s not a free melee then, either. You need to use one of your actions for it.
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GAH! You are of course correct! Thanks! I’ve not played a game for a few weeks, can’t now remember if I was playing this right or not but it seems obvious now.
Maybe when they go to 0, do not “heal” them back to 1?
They would stay on negative wound and every time they get a wound their Ne test would be harder.
I made Fantasy Deadzone, it’s pretty fun