Host Shadowbeast and Double Attacks

Is there a reason why people are adding the additional attacks from Host Shadowbeast* before doubling for Mikayel’s Sword of Umbra or duellist or so on? Like is there a rule saying that you specifically multiply after adding in KOW? Because the rules of mathematics don’t work that way, but I’ve only ever heard of Mikayel’s 32 attacks and never his 22 attacks and I’m starting to get sketched out, after having my clock cleaned this afternoon by an 11 attack Varangur lord on horse.

*this is also the case with Axe of the Giant Slayer / Scythe of the Harvester and so on

EDIT: Wait, an Ice Blade has duellist yet can take a snow fox for +1 attack. I’ve always thought she had 14 attacks against an individual, should that have been 13 this whole time???

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There’s no specific rule that I know of, but the attacks are added a phase before the multiplication happens, or during army creation which is far before the Duelist ever begins to apply. I think its fine?

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I think it’s based on the Giant who has random attacks. It was clarified long ago that if he attacks in the flank or rear, you roll the d6+n attacks, then double/triple them.


I remembered flanks/rears exist shortly after posting … So yea, I guess we’ve been casually violating mathematics for years and didn’t question it :grimacing: (I do think you’re right that there’s a FAQ telling us to do this with random attaks, that we’re extrapolating out.)

Ultimately, it’s a smaller thing that will only come up every time you face Twilight Kin. Which blessedly I’ve almost never done, but in the short time since COK22 I’ve heard a distressing number of reports of Mikayel + Shadowhost dunking on fools. Super sucks that this is like an auto thing.

I think my anxiety over doubling Shadowbeast just shows how anxious the spell makes me. I struggle to feel like ‘super solos’ / ‘herohammer’ / ‘individuals with 7+ attaks and Shadowbeast behind them’ are very good for the game in the long run, however I’m reminded that I’ve run combat individuals for years now, so stand to benefit personally, and that KOW isn’t WHFB. These individuals aren’t scoring, aren’t grabbing flanks/rears and multiplying their 11+ attaks, and when it comes down to it you’ve just got more reason to murder the wizard - who also isn’t shooting 7+ lightning bolt at you!


Also remember that pretty much everyone now has access to Hex, with the Tricksters Wand and the Torc of Dissonance available as artifacts.

The tooled up TK blender package is getting on for 400pts, so for the you expect it to be nasty.

We can talk about Hex as a solution in another thread maybe, but I do agree that when it comes to Shadowbeast it’s relevant. Personally I think preparing to murder wizards with more gusto is the answer, we’re moving past the time where you can just ignore the heal bot, shrug at the bane chanter, weather the boomsticker and protect your flanks from the surger.

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yeah that was my understanding too, it’s the final value that you double or triple.

it makes sense too, if you hit someone in the side you get double attacks. it would be odd that you’d only double SOME of the attacks you had.

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I intend to run an Ilona + Blood Rage + Shadow Beast 10 list pretty soon, but here’s the thing… it won’t be Herohammer because none of those individuals can sit safely inside a horde of 100 skeletons! They’ll always be chargable if they go into combat, and risky too.

Also, and forgive me if I mess up the terminology (I am not a mathematician after all) but wouldn’t it be fine even in math? Adding and multiplying in the same operation would perhaps work like you’re worrying it would, but given that they’re seperate operations

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Yeaaaaaaaaa order of operations means nothing if you’re just doing one thing and then another thing and so on. I was treating it as a sequence in the hope that TK wouldn’t be 100% abusive, but Dark Elf players gonna Dark Elf :roll_eyes: KOW has also shown in other places that it treats strings of events as single events - look at moving and the questions around yielding individuals blocking ‘pick-up-and-place’ (or something like that, basically where if movement is one thing it’s cool but it it’s a sequence of steps it isn’t)

Funny thing about Ilona, I was just checking her out this morning as like the super solo of super solos. Mikayel is cute and does his trick, but Ilona is the whole package. I do have to lololol at her not being safe against chargers - she’s Def 6, LL 2 and -1 to be hit by the things that are most likely to make it into combat with her outside of her terms :sweat_smile: AND she’ll slaughter other super solos in ways that they can’t often do back. Props on the blood rager tho, that’s some fresh sexiness.

EDIT: Do you have to use a Liche King to get that HSB (10)?? That’s sooooo many points!

Slayer and Rampage say the random attacks are ‘gained to profile’ so it’s like the generated number of attacks are printed there on the profile, and then the doubling for duellist happens. Sorry if I’m stating the obvious.

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Yeah that’s what abusive means. Anyway, one phase happens before another, this is a wargame not math. :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway yes I use a Liche for Host Shadowbeast 10, because I like how tough Liches are. Gonna give her the Banner of Spellward too, it’ll be grand.

So it does! That clarity is much appreciated, rules writers :clap:

Hmm, one could think of Shadowbeast as a Ranged Phase addition, then doubling as a part of Melee Phase :thinking: I’m content with that reasoning for why the rules aren’t as clear as with Slayer / Rampage above, for all that matters.

I give you a ton of cred on the Liche, I dig them but have never seen one on any table. I feel like people would just bump up to Morgoth (pre-nerf) or settle on necromancing.

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there’s probably about a dozen games on the Victoria Wargaming youtube channel with the liche king in the list. It’s really the absolute core of my undead lists. awesome tool.

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I stand corrected, I have seen up to a dozen games with the Liche King :wink: