Presenting: Least used units per army! (from the "Nick dataset")

22

That is a very reductionist view, using cavalry charging as an example, that is what cavalry are for, they aren’t a unit type that is better at receiving a charge. Also most cavalry charges were used to make units run away and break formation, not through sheer brute force, but rather through the psychological fear that they caused. As the enemy flees they were then cut down by the cavalry. Mounted archers loosed their arrows as they got close to the opponent, not from a great distance. Cavalryonly got bogged down in a protractedcombat if things went deeply wrong, they were used to hot and run, Kings of War doesn’treflect that. Have you played any historical wargames?

2nd edition shooting was a only broken because Bane Chant gave the unit piercing 1, Elves were the main culprit here.

23

Your discussion about what represents or doesnt represent real historical warfare is veering away from the actual topic here guys. This post is for discussing specific units, and why they might be underused, what could help them get more usage etc. Please aim your feedback in that direction :slight_smile:

24

In this respect it is interesting to note that the centaurs are considered to be a bad unit (and rightly so in my view) despite Mantic producing the models for them. :upside_down_face:

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25

Here are few of my thoughts on why I don’t have certain things, and why I do have some things.

|Abyssal Dwarfs|Abyssal Berserkers| - models are too expensive to justify buying the needed amount to get a good unit out of.
|Abyssal Dwarfs|Dragon Fire-team| - waiting for the crew models to be updated with the new Abyssal Dwarf models.
|Abyssal Dwarfs|G’rog Mortar| - same reason as Dragon Fire-team.

|Elves|Forest Guard| - I use these., not brilliant, but they get the job done.
|Elves|Shield Watch| - These are fantastic, Def 5+, Elite, and Crushing strength 1. Very surprised to see them here.
|Elves|Tree Herder| - Big fan of this guy, the Aura of Life ability is better than running a Mage with heal. Also hits hard, and can take a lot damage.

|Kingdoms of Men|Ballista| - Artillery are decent this edition, surprised to see these cheap and cheerful pieces here.
|Kingdoms of Men|General| - Kingdom of Men have a great named character, who’s ability is brilliant. In light of that a generic general is always going to be seen as a poor choice.
|Kingdoms of Men|Mounted Scouts| - I run multiples of these, sure they aren’t great, and struggle to do any damage, but for me they are thematic.
|Kingdoms of Men|Shield Wall| - cheap and cheerful, good at getting in the way, can’t see why people would not take them.

|The Herd|Great Chieftan on Minotaur Chariot| - I have one, I like it for the speed and hitting power. Not sure why it is on here.
|The Herd|Minotaur Chariots| - Good speed, and hitting power, not sure why they aren’t popular.
|The Herd|Tribal Tracker| - only really useful if a player is taking Tribal Trappers, even then doesn’t do that much.
|The Herd|Tribal Trappers| - I take these mainly just to give my force some ranged attacks and troops to cause shenanigans. Don’t expect much from them.

|Undead|Deathpack| - no official model as yet, so I don’t have them.
|Undead|Ghoul Ghast| - Ghouls aren’t strong, so taking a Ghoul focused character is a bit pointless.
|Undead|Lady Ilona| - nice ability, and the only Enthrall in the Undead, however her points tag is too expensive.
|Undead|Revenant on Undead Great Burrowing Wyrm| - A solid choice, surprised to see it here.
|Undead|Skeleton Archers| - models are too expensive, if there were a Mantic plastic kit, I may consider taking them.

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26

Agreed. Infantry shooting with 5+ is super terrible in this edition.
It is very easy to disrupt shooting with cheap and fast units. A hero at 60pts will very likely disrupt a handgunner horde in turn 2.

Nobody wants to see shooting dominating, but would be nice to be able to take a few regiments or a horde and not feel like you are purposefully gimping yourself.

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27

Input for my played armies:

|Kingdoms of Men|Ballista| - just spend the extra points for shattering and ignore cover
|Kingdoms of Men|Charioteers| - why does the rules committee hate chariots so much? Why irregular? Unlocking, they would just be pretty bad, not actively terrible.
|Kingdoms of Men|Fanatic Instigator| - this guy missing inspiring fanatics must be an oversight?
|Kingdoms of Men|General| - too many other good options. -15pts, and they can be good hero swaps when you have the pts
|Kingdoms of Men|Mammoth| - lots of monsters are just objectively worse than character (monster)
|Kingdoms of Men|Mounted Scouts| - 5+ shooting really shafts these guys. They would be much more interesting with the stats of the old mounted halfling rangers. (4+ shoot, 5+ melee). Now they are just worse sergeants.
|Kingdoms of Men|Shield Wall| - the definition of meh. Cant survive, cant kill their way out of a paper bag. Need to drop in price.

|League of Rhordia|Crossbow Block| - expensive, easily distrupted 5+ shooting. Wasn`t interesting in 2nd, and just got worse.
|League of Rhordia|Duke| - similar to the general, there are generally better options for the hero slots. Needs and aura probably.
|League of Rhordia|Halfling Master Sergeant| - baron is just better for the same pts. And halflings are not that relevant for rhordia anymore
|League of Rhordia|Knights| - these are ok
|League of Rhordia|Mammoth|
|League of Rhordia|Mounted Scouts|
|League of Rhordia|Volley Gun| - nerfed from 2nd ed, cannons are better now. Probably an ok unit, but why not just go for the cannon?

|Northern Alliance|Cavern Dweller| - decent monster, but monsters are overcosted IMO
|Northern Alliance|Frost Giant| - same as above
|Northern Alliance|Human Clansmen| - too expensive for the low damage output. Give me back my bloodsworn / warband! I have several hordes of these guys that I dont get to use!
|Northern Alliance|Ice Kin Master Hunter| - looks good IMO, but hard to find unlock
|Northern Alliance|Orlaf the Barbarian| - this guy is actually pretty good. Unlocks is the issue.
|Northern Alliance|Serakina, the Ice Queen| **
|Northern Alliance|Snow Troll Prime| - give him back the big shield please. Then he gets a different role from the frostfang characters, who now just outdo him.

|Varangur|Frost Giant|
|Varangur|Horse Raiders| - they look useable, but thundra wolves are probably better
|Varangur|Night Raiders| - too expensive, suffers from jack of all trades
|Varangur|Reavers| - way too expensive, should probably just come with lifedrain 2 built in
|Varangur|Snow Troll Prime|
|Varangur|Snow Trolls| - they feel just 10pts too expensive IMO
|Varangur|Thegn| - no utility, no mount, no killing power… worst unit in the list?
|Varangur|Thegn on Frostfang| - an ok unit, unlocks is the issue

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28

All warmachines should have these as standard. It reflects the sheer power of them to punch through terrain, and the psychological impact… especially on flame based warmachines. Can’t imagine I’d be willing to hang around if a few of my friends just got set on fire, I’d be wanting to go home.

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29

Couple of points from this.

Some of the units on this list are genuinely awful, so even on a level playing field won’t get taken. [Mammoth, most chariots, basic static unit shooting]

Others aren’t bad, but the list in question has options that are better, so those get taken.

It is still a relatively small sample size, and (as commented above more eloquently than I could put it) some of the lists are probably really just tweaked versions used multiple times (so by not including a ‘good’ unit could skew results).

Play style/meta. It is a thing as army design does vary, both between UK & US (and elsewhere in the world), but also within the US. This can then influence the above.

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30

Though not in FoN. Low sample size for The Herd, or the availability of harpies/gur panthers as cheaper chaff, or someting else?

Another example would be the KoM giant & mammoth, I expect that the rules are better for the unit they make a mini for, but you could argue it’s nice of them to give you a mammoth option.

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31

I don’t think these are bad, but 95% of people are thematically wanting to play Wood Elves and therefore they get overlooked.

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32

|Kingdoms of Men|Ballista| Not bad, but cannons are way better and even siege artillery gets the nod. Since you aren’t going to see KoM lists with 7+ war engines, this just won’t crop up much
|Kingdoms of Men|Charioteers| would suck even if weren’t irregular
|Kingdoms of Men|Fanatic Instigator| please inspire at least fanatics. Better character options
|Kingdoms of Men|General| this is the foot/mounted option. Better character options - bsb for inspire, hero for disruption, on winged beast for actual use
|Kingdoms of Men|Mammoth| poor, like really poor. TC/CS mix and big flank doesn’t do any favours over giant. Lack of ballista option from v2 is a shame.
|Kingdoms of Men|Mounted Scouts| decent, but current KoM meta doesn’t run them
|Kingdoms of Men|Shield Wall| yeah, nothing unit. Trumped by all other infantry choices. Giving them a Legion option would maybe give you something different

|League of Rhordia|Crossbow Block| static shooting issue
|League of Rhordia|Duke| better options
|League of Rhordia|Halfling Master Sergeant| better options
|League of Rhordia|Knights| trumped by honor guard & nimble halflings
|League of Rhordia|Mammoth| sucks - bring back iron beast
|League of Rhordia|Mounted Scouts|
|League of Rhordia|Volley Gun| bit surprised, but if similar/same player then might not crop up

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33

What have you done…

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34

The flood gates are open!
Hot topic. :sunglasses::popcorn:

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35

A regiment of Hunters of the Wild is 160 points. A Horde of Forest Shamblers is 200 points. Shamblers can do damage, Hunters can’t. 15 attacks at Me 3+ is nice, but no crush means they flub against literally anything relevant. And that low-end nerve means Def 5+ doesn’t last very long…

They’d probably be closer to good if they weren’t mostly fighting other Def 5+ units.

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36

I have been known to run 10 war engines… but I think I am an outlier in that regards.

Def 5+ isn’t the basic defence value of units. Really feel sorry for you if you encounter forces that lean heavily into Def 5+.

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37

Northern Alliance, Undead, Salamanders, Basilea… all with def 5+ hordes and heroes and monsters. Every kind of knight, every dragon, every kind of troll, high defense is just really good and not weighted in the same way shooting is.

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38

I was being brief because we’re veering off topic and my point was actually about ranged weapons.

I have, yes. More than fantasy, which is why I would say something like:

The point has been missed and was getting off topic anyway, so moving on:

39

|Forces of the Abyss|Abyssal Harbinger| With things like warlocks and abyssal fiends your inspiring needs are met and hero slots are scarce in The Abyss.
|Forces of the Abyss|Chroneas| Does “cools stuff” you don’t need, but pay for, in a list with many cool toys.
|Forces of the Abyss|Hellequin-Blood-masque| Other heroes do more for taking one of those precious hero slots.
|Forces of the Abyss|Hellhounds| gargoyles and abyssal horsemen have it covered
|Forces of the Abyss|Imps| were good value nerve in 2nd, but have less nerve in third. I miss people underestimating my imps.
|Forces of the Abyss|Succubi Larvae| lower abyssals and abyssal ghouls do the job and are easier to get models for.

|Nightstalkers|Banshee| a lot of points for a bit of a gimmick.
|Nightstalkers|Blood Worms| scarecrows are cost effective and have nice models. To make blood worms not too good their nerve is a bit lower, which makes them brittle.
|Nightstalkers|Butcher Fleshripper| actually a cost effective and handy unit, but in a list with so many cool things.
|Nightstalkers|Horror Riftweavers| they just miss the mark. Really wish this unit was something similar to a war drum.
|Nightstalkers|Reaper Souldrinker| with mindthirst it is even more appealing to take only scoring units. Even if you do decide to take an induviduals), horrors and shades offer more utility.
Also; life leech on glass hammers that you already had to get a delivery system for is not that practical.
|Nightstalkers|Spectres| these need a boost. Plus I like my night- stalkers aggressive.
|Nightstalkers|Terror| This saddens me. It is expensive though and prone to damage spikes (not often, but it evporates from time to time). Shadow-hulk is durable without relying on weird rules.
|Nightstalkers|The Dream Hunter| see banshee and souldrinker

Edit: also interesting that shadows hounds are not on the list, despite what “people on the internet” say about them.

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40

That is rough, I still think it is quite odd that Northern Alliance Clansmen (who are Humans wearing furs and bone) have Def 5+. I get the sneaking suspension it was done in order to sell more of Mantic’s new faction.

Most of my factions are Def 3/4, with the odd Def 5 unit here and there.

One thing I have noticed is that Crushing Strength (1) and Thunderous charge (n) seem very commonplace, which against naturally low defence units is devastating,

However I agree that a high defence stat is really good, and not weighted the same as ranged attacks.

41

This, giving the lightly armed clansmen Def 5 is one of the things that annoyed me quite a bit with 3rd. It takes me out of the game.

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