KoW Vanguard Historical?

In another forum there was a short discussion about which rules to use for Skirmish games for Pike&Shot timeline specially 30 years war

Main problem is that the most characteristic troop types of the new model army are only present at large formations or army level games, as in close combat nearly everyone used a sword ( The Three Musketeers are famous for their fencing and not for using the heavy muskets after which they are named) and so the available historical rules focus on fencing

Vanguard as a Fantasy game come with all the typical weapons the time period is famous for and uses them (as in a Fantasy system having non historical fighting is not a big problem)

With Rhordia and KoM lists there are 2 suitable lists to chose from yet not sure if both would work well without taking the fantasy elements as well combining them to have all units for a historical Warband available

Making historical rules for two factions during the 30 years war (professional Armies and City States) based on Rhordia and KoM is simple, yet I am not sure if this would be enough or more factions are needed to get more nations in (France, Sweden, Ottoman, Spain, Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealt, Denmark, England, Scotland) and make it more intresting as I don’t know how Warbands looked like for those if there were any (as for the German States marauding Warbands, scout troops for armies searching for food and defending city guards were a normal thing during that time that fit perfectly into the Vangaurd system)

Making this kind of a Brainstorming as any hints, tips, suggestions are welcome

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Well, in Pikeman’s Lament all the factions are using basically the same stats and most units can buy some extra rules to better tailor them to specific historical unit. To my knowledge, there was no real difference between imperial or protestant musketeer. Weapons were mostly the same and even tactics were similar.

That said, some leeway could be used. For instance, Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth could use stats from Brotherhood warband, using winged hussars as knights and haiduks as foot knight and cossacks as spearmen.
Ottomans could be Forces of Nature, with centaurs bray hunters using as akinji and regular centaurs as sipahi or deli.

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Yeah on the army level there was not much difference as all bought equipment from the same people and the commanders equipped the troops

and while in units mass shooting at range it is minor difference between weapons but on a 1:1 having a rifled hunting musket, a light arquebuse or large caliber musket makes a difference (in range and penetration)

Also Pikemen Lament is more for 60+ models and not a small Skirmish

that is a great idea

Sure, that is true, but that is very hard to emulate in rulset as Vanguard. Of course, it can be perhaps done by making a list of weapons like musket, blunderbuss, arqeubuse and similar which could be bought as common weapon. So for instance, musket +2pts (range 12", Reload) for poor quality troops like cossacks.

I got the idea in the first place because the different ranged and melee weapons are already there:

Pistol - Range 6", Piercing (1), Reload, Pound
Blunderbuss - Range 9", Breath, Piercing (1) Reload
Rifle - Range 12", Marksman, Piercing (1), Reload
Musket - Range 12", Marksman, Piercing (2), Reload
Marksman’s Rifle - Range 15", Marksman, Piercing (1), Reload (rare)

Spear, Helbard, Heavy Weapons, Two-handed Weapons, and special rules like Gun Smoke, Combined Fire, etc.

I like that all guns have piercing because guns are nasty, but I wonder would it be too much for Vanguard, especially if any unit can buy gun. On the side note, perhaps Pistol could lose Reload? It would make it more flexible, especially on cavalry.

I played Vanguard only couple times solo, so my experience is very limited though, but I noticed that piercing weapons obliterate units in KoWH. I played once vikings vs holy roman empire and although vikings had numbers, arquebusers did massive amount of damage as most historical units have def 4+.

I have two suggestions to get you started.

One is form a core list of units that are essentially the same for everyone.

Then compile a list of faction specific rules/ upgrades or units for suitably different factions.

Secondly, when it comes to gunpowder weapons having piercing and being strong. Remember this is the period where the term bullet proof comes from. As there are no monsters or magical beings, we could consider making the heaviest armors have higher defense. Taking the role of tanking monsters etc.

the experience @ThaneBobo had with KoW-H is why I want to avoid a master list as well as making piercing weapons common
with Vanguard you can limit the specific units by using the same unit with upgrades/options for similar things to limit the amount people can take (eg only 1 option for a black powder soldier which can take any of the weapons instead of having 2 different ones)

the idea with more armoured units instead of the monsters is a good one, as there were different heavy armours used and a full body armour vs a simple breastplate can make the difference needed for the game

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