they’re messing with base sizes because they don’t even understand what purports to be their game. happily, I won’t be going anywhere near it, moved on to better games
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When I first heard of Warhammer the Old World I was intrigued. But not from a ruleset perspective. I read that Cathay and Kislev would get miniatures. That excited me more than anything.
Nowadays, for battles I want Kings of War. Everything else seems clumsy in comparison.
For miniatures, I was hoping for new and interesting miniatures in lines that don’t have a lot of miniatures out there. Fantasy China would be awesome from a modelling perspective.
However, it turns out it will just be focusing on the usual old armies. So while some sets I might pick up for conversions and bits. I don’t see myself being drawn in.
That being said, if they ever launched a range of miniatures based on the Warmaster Araby army, I would be all over them.
But I would still use them to play Kings of War.
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I played WHFB back in the day and really liked it, but I hated to build army lists, though. Very unintuitive and clumsy. I already used Mantic Undead for my Zombies and Ghouls, because I liked the style more. I never painted a significant amount of models for my army because of the weird resurrection rules for Zombies and Skellies. Games were fun but pretty much a game of chance and luck.
Now I play KoW, I love building lists and try out stuff, I have about 2600pt fully painted and started two more armies.
The rules are just so much better. I even convinced a friend who was never interested in WHFB to start KoW. All it took me to lure him in was a small Ambush game.
Still I think the relaunch will get KoW into trouble, at least here in Germany. The player base is relativley small and Mantic’s support of localized games is pretty unreliable.
Also GW is still very dominant on YouTube, tabletop channels will show a lot of Old World content, while KoW is underepresented.
I hope Mantic will up their localization and marketing efforts to show the community how great KoW is.
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While I still think GW is making good miniatures (although sometimes ‘overdesigned’) I couldn’t help but notice a lack of different poses while browsing through the OTT homepage:
Maybe KoW isn’t endangered by the Old World at all😆
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this is a problem since GW switched to digital sculpting
one might get the impression they have a single hero template for poses and use that on every character and in the best case just mirror it
like when the model has the other foot on the tactical rock it is something exceptional and worth praising
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I played Warhammer Fantasy for 19 years and will probably get the book for nostalgia sake, but KoW is a significantly better game. I’d be vaguely interested in making a Rhordia army using Empire for old times sake, they were my favourite, and first, army. So making another army of them would be a really nice time for me. But I doubt I will get around to it, prices will no doubt be prohibitive.
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Mantic Universe Podcast talking about some impacts TOW might have
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I think one of the more immediate impacts might be sales of Empire of Dust kits going through the roof when the 1990’s skeletons are confirmed for Tomb Kings in a few days.
They weren’t the best quality on release, putting them out into a 2023 scene with alternatives, 3d sculpts etc. falls way short of GW’s usual standards.
There’s KoW as a game system and Mantic as a company, KoW might be played less, but Mantic will suddenly be a supplier of WHFB minis again, a market which hasn’t been big since the AoS launch. Not sure if Mantic even needs that market anymore, but it’ll definitely bring in some sales.
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Something I would add to the points discussed:
For the social media groups, there are surveys showing that the majority of people don’t actually play the game and a lot just play 1-2 times per year. Those are collectors and owing a GW army for whatever system is the equivalent of having a perfect grade gundam.
Being very expensive is part of that and duplicates or hard to transport single models do not matter as one is growing the collection over years (and spending 100-200€ each year is not that much)
and for those very people it is important to have the original or something that is as close as possible (hence why 3D printing is a thing, to make cheap carbon copies of GW models)
with KoW, or any other Rank & File game, this is different as you want to have a playable army to buy at once at a reasonable price
and the models on the base don’t matter, but full bases look better is the approach of 90% of R&F games to get players in.
even in Napoleonics, you can have the full Battalion with 36 models, or play the same game with 16 models per Battalion. 36 looks better, but you must not to this and if one does not think such a huge number is doable, less is perfectly fine (Kings of War is doing similar and this helps a lot)
comparing to TOW were a “block” looks to be 25-36 models, you must make them as you need the individual bases and multi bases or unit fillers won’t work well with the formation change mechanics
and this is not only about the price but also time needed to get things done
(and for the price, if elite infantry stays the old price with 20€ for 10 models, 2 units cost you the same as an army in other games)
so those who are going to play and don’t have a collection will certainly not buy from GW, if they buy from others like Mantic or 3D print will depend if official events will be a thing in their region or not
PS:
and for gaming, I came along very strange arguments the last weeks
as people argued about using unit bases instead of change the base sizes as you are not ever going to change formation as this is a noob trap as the one who use those rules will lose the game
while other said that one going to use march formation to get cavalry behind the line and do a flank or rare charge is WAAC competitive player and that such things will never happen in casual play
than watching some battle reports for old Editions on YT, people really play that way. Put units in a line, move them straight forward, roll dice and talk about how bland R&F gaming is
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Some very good points there, @kodos . I’ve been playing more historical recently, Hail Ceasar and some Pike &Shot, but went back to KoW last weekend and tried Ambush to familiarise myself with the new rules, but Mantic have it seems started to use the GW mobel of changing rules on an annual basis to sell rulebooks, which is exactly why i switched to KoW in the first place. My big Red KoW Book is now out of date it seems, as is my Northern Alliance army.
Nevertheless, I played KoW rules as per the BR book between KoM and Herd, (Romans and Celts) I have to say, I missed the flexibility of Hail Ceasar rules for things like changing formation, and both sides geting an attack in each round, etc. I love KoW’s simplified approach, and its balanced games, where most armies are nearly on par, rather than Warhammer where playing Orcs and Goblins or Skaven meant handing a victory to the undead army you are facing or Dragon riding Elf army, before the first die is rolled.
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Yes, the possibility to change formation is so something I miss as well
But I fear that train passed with 2nd Edition as now forcing people to have multiple smaller bases to make a line instead of 1 regiment base won’t work out (here I like LaSalle with 4 bases per unit that would be 50x40 each as a workable middle ground between 1 regiment base and single model bases)
For the rules changes, this is a tricky part.
Lot of people see games that don’t get regular upgrades as dead and/or boring while others want them to stay as they are forever
The current way is somewhere in the middle (as reworking armies with updating the model lines) and with an up to date list builder not an issue (a little different to GW were you must buy the books no matter what)
And for those playing at home they don’t need to follow at all (my dwarfs are still somehow the same as with 2nd Edition so changes are not that big in general)
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Honestly it always is a bit tricky, you definitely do need to keep an eye out for what the others games are doing and sit down to think “okay is this rule better?” or “Do we need to put something like this in our game?” You can’t be static in the industry or overcomplicate things.
The biggest problem for the Old World is going to be GW themselves, so far I have no confidence they will properly support their armies.
They have this terrible habit of giving more things to the popular or poster boy factions, while less popular factions get scraps or even nothing in comparison.
When your less popular factions need to make convoluted lists to even win casual games you may need to sit down and have to face the fact you screwed them.
Worse case scenario for the Old World players is that this turns into a 40k debacle where you buy the new stuff and armybook only for the new stuff to get wildly buffed or nerfed and the entire rules section of your armybook to be practically worthless in less the 24 HOURS.
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Some very good points from both @Dubren and @kodos , thanks. Multi bases for me are an important factor, as i have Parkinson’s Disease, so a movement tray full of loose miniatures is an accident bound to happen. I am now breaking my units up into mainly troop size, 100mm x 40mm, for 2 ranks deep of 5 men wide. These can be two units together for regiments, (Which i usually paint to theme to help link the two easily.) or two wide for Hail Ceasar type units Standard Battle Line of 2 deep by 10 wide, or for Warbands such as Celts, the KoW Horde size applies to both KoW and HC. Sometimes, I have created a seperate 2x2 leader base with unit champion, bannerman and musician on it, so that it can indicate which formation and facing the unit is. Othertimes, a simple token will indicate direction. I use ones I had from Kill Team, that have a single arrow (direction, double arrow (charging from a hill, or U turn, along with other useful ones for Disordered or Hindered/Shaken and so forth. Gererally, they ate the best thing that came out of Kill Teams, (They also include 6 hexaganol trophy tokens for missions)
I can appreciate improving errors and adjusting after release to clarify errors or misprints, and options to improve on what went before. It’s the throwing out the bath with the bathwater type of change where clearly little or no play testing was done, and the enphasis on selling more models rather than game quality. That’s what gets my goat up.
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Just reading a post about upcoming changes to KoW with Clash of Kings, and one in particular caught my eye: Standard Bearers, either in units or as a Battle Standard Bearer to give a greater aura of bravery to inspire units in his/her vicinity. I’m a fan of them anyway and tend to include a compliment of Musician, Standard Bearer and Captain in most units i build.
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Well things went a bit odd for me. Recently we’ve been playing a lot of GrimDark Future with a bit of Gaslands and I had just introduced Armada to the group. I knew at least one person was quite infatuated with Tomb Kings and I was worried that my friends might try and make me play Old World. To preempt this I “casually” mentioned that if people wanted to collect Warhammer models they game to play would be Kings of War.
I demoed a game using my 10mm travel set and to my surprise things took off a bit. One friend dug out his Empire army, another ended up using his hilariously large Sigmar orcs as ogres and another say “I finally have a reason to paint more goblins” after playing a game.
So in the end it worked out. I would say that perhaps Mantic could temporarily relax the restrictions on paying for the companion to coincide with the launch of GW’s game. The companion is a fair enough deal but it does make it slightly harder to get new players in that it was in the Easy Army days.
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I’ve been following the updates for Warhammer, The Old World, and so far it is good, but 10 years too late. If they had made these changes back then it might have worked.
Now I see it as a mid way game between the sleek KOW and the clunky old Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
Some of the new sculpts for Tomb Kings and Bretonians are nice.
BUT the new tomb kings army has the same old skeletons that were dated back then!
Without Kislev, Cathay, or at the very least updated sculpts (like the new Bretonnian foot knights) it is just not a competitor for me.
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I’m pleased they are re-releasing the old Breton M@A (although probably less so about the price point!) and some of the new stuff does look good.
Multibasing really made KoW for me a far more enjoyable hobby than painting individually based models, let alone how the gameplay is easier.
If enough of the local crowd did get into it i might do a Tomb King style army with WGA skeletons (they are releasing a combined infantry/cavalry/chariot kit - like the classic GW undead army one - next year) and 3rd party stuff.
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Well it’s nice to see GW haven’t forgotten rule bloat or the need for multiple f-ing books to play their new(old) game!
Hardback 350 page rule book; two 160 army list books (good/evil with 5/4 armies respectively) and separate army books with extra rules, army building options & background!
Undead get a new dragon thing & priest; brets a new peg hero - but otherwise its just the previous models in the initial sets.
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The fact the Brets, a faction that got massively neglected by GW, has one of the lowest options for an army, who are basically one of the opening act armies only get one new unit and hero after all that time really shows how committed they are to finally support their less ‘popular’ lines.
I’m sure they won’t fall into bad habits again like they have done with their other warhammer IPs and begin making the popular armies bloated in comparison.
No sir can’t see that happening.
Granted depended on the price I may get my hands on some but it sure as the Abyss won’t be for playing warhammer I can tell you that for a fact.
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As someone who still has a toe dipped in Age of Sigmar (just love those Nighthaunts), I’m somewhat underwhelmed by the proposed first wave to kick off the Old World. Old sculpts that were horribly dated before everything exploded and numerous books at launch don’t make for an auspicious start. Then again, any interest I may have had in the Old World evaporated when Skaven were labelled ‘Legends’ as a token gesture of inclusion for the setting. At least I’ll always have a Ratkin force on the back-burner and Ambush is a great entry-level game to pique interest.
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