Do you think KOW will survive the Old World returning? I hope it does but GW always seems to get a ton of players new and old that flock too them.
I think a large part of the kow players enjoy the game because of its unique parts. I think other communities might suffer a stronger pull back to the GW world, such as various oldhammer groups and possibly many 9th age players, both of whom are practicaly playing a warhammer methadone.
They will probably have people going back but generally I don’t see KoW dying over it.
At the end of the day GW is pretty bad when it comes to making their games somewhat balanced.
Furthermore their blatant favoritism for a few factions has been a source of great frustration for many players and judging from their other games currently that hasn’t chanced at all.
Besides Mantic has more interesting factions.
It looks like Old World is going to be a full narrative game, and this has always been the strongest part of Warhammer, which is also the part were KoW is weakest
Don’t think we see a lot of impact unless GW surprises us with a brilliant and fun ruleset, otherwise there is a good chance that people take the narrative part and the models from TOW and rules from KoW
this would also be the best of both worlds and given that TOW is releasing old models, which will likely be expensive as hell, there will be a lot of people buying the KoW models for TOW too.
GW was fun as I was 15 and found it great… but there literally was nothing else. Long time ago, different times.
Looking at their other current games and balancing as well as release practices I can’t see them suddenlycreating a ruleset that appeals to people who are used to KoWs effective rules and cohesive balancing approach.
Ideally, we got a new range of models to choose from for those so inclined, but that’s about it from my perspective. If I were inclined to switch game systems, which I am not, I’d rather take a look at other game systems like OPR Fantasy or something else entirely like Infinity, than ever go back to GW’s messy release driven rules.
So KOW players going back to GW? Nah … maybe as a 2nd game for die hard fans (One can play more than one game after all! )What I can totally see however, would be that some people who know the Old World from the “Total War Warhammer” computer game franchise could be tempted into trying out tabletop gaming for the first time … and that would actually be a win-win for everyone involved, as I’d bet that some of those players would find their way to KoW eventually
Give Mantic some credit on the narrative front, at least they haven’t retconned the results from global campaigns cause they didn’t like the results and then later did a poorly written do-over where the fans had no say.
I think the massive amount of Oldhammer 3D sculpts available, plus GW relegating TOW to a specialist game, are going to hurt its overall profitability and life expectancy. Because it’s an obvious cash grab from the Dub, this probably doesn’t give it much of a future - making money is the only reason TOW is happening. Which is partially Mantic’s fault, since KOW 3E showed there’s life in the RNF market.
Anyway, I used to suffer a lot of agita over The Old World, that it would disintegrate all the work we’ve done to grow Kings of War, a legitimately great game and a wonderful community. I’ve heard some commentators talk about how TOW will be played everywhere even if/when it’s a bad game simply because it’s a GW product, and I guess that’s more likely true than false? But I’m not sure very many people playing KOW today are that interested in returning* to bad rules based around rolling on charts. I imagine some do miss herohammer, given the prominence of certain living legends on KOW tables, however the odds are great that TOW is going to be poorly balanced on release, poorly supported in short order, and really only designed to (re)sell GW minis, which while occasionally cool are increasingly an acquired taste and massively expensive at the army level. Imagine making a 2000-2500 point WHFB army except at modern prices! Because that’s what the new TOW player is going to need to do.
*I say returning but I’m often surprised by how many KOW players never played WHFB. Maybe they were aware of it but doing other stuff, maybe it had already died when they became interested in tabletop wargaming (i.e. during lockdown), but regardless, not every KOW player is a gnarled Warhammer vet longing for their ex or happy to never see them again (I’m certainly the latter at this point).
Since this is already more than I meant to write, I’ll say that the real loss for KOW may be the generation of new wargamers that start up with TOW instead of KOW simply because of visibility and availability. However I have half a hope that GW’s shiny onboarding might get them into wargaming, and KOW’s superior game mechanics, price point and community might tempt them to over in a couple years when TOW’s support dries up.
I’m excited to see what Old World brings us, mostly because Wood Elf Waystalkers have been hell to get on the second hand market and I need them for my Sylvan Kin! Kings of War will be fine, it’ll just have more models to use.
I’m interested in what they doing with it , in so far as they’ve taken the story back to a quite a blank canvas from the old WFB narrative.
I like a lot of the artwork (esp maps) and some of teaser/render models look quite nice.
Would i jump ship - no!
Multibasing for me made KoW,
Towards the end of 8th(?) I barely had any inclination to build/paint as i had a couple of tournament armies that worked and wasn’t forking for anything more.
Now it was have ‘fun with models’!
Even without over-thinking the eventual price point for a R&F game from GW, please remember!
40 goblins and 2 chariot things £35
5 goblin wolf riders £37.50
I would have a hard time spending the money and leaving KOW although I am only a part time non tournament for the most part player. Ronnie is a genuinely nice guy and so my loyalty of the heart is with Mantic. I hope when its all said and done that more new players do shift to KOW because the rules mechanics are really second to none. Thank you for the responses and now I have Ogres to put together!
Others in this thread have already said that there will be pockets of fans wanting to at least go back to The Old World for a spell. But at the very least, my own anecdote is that I started playing Kings of War after just getting into Warhammer for a year because it offered a focus on the parts of that style of game that I liked: Rank n’ Flank, and high speed, low drag gameplay.
To answer the question: I think Kings of War will absolutely survive. I think it will, at worst, slow down a bit as people try out the new old thing.
I am confident that KoW will be fine.
There are some players who actually want to play Warhammer, but KoW is what’s available for now.
They will leave.
Some players will be drawn away by the shiny new thing and/or their nostalgia. Some will stay there, some will play both and some will try it and prefer KoW.
There are other players who prefer KoW as a game and/or Mantic as a company and will keep playing KoW while effectively ignoring WTOW.
There are some players who are so salty and fed up with GW that they refuse to play anything by GW ever again.
It is hard to say which proportion of the current KoW player base each of those make up.
We all only have an idea of our local scene or groups and probably overestimate the one we are ourselves (last two for me).
I think that there are enough of the last two categories to keep KoW going though.
Definitely true. It continues to astound me that GW has a large and loyal player/fan base.
Indeed. I never got into WHFB because the barrier to entry was just too high.
I only got into anything other than 15mm historical (ancients) because AoS had a very low barrier to entry and a few mates and I gave it a go.
Not gonna lie, the only thing TOW gives me a bit of interest is Bretonnian cavalry.
To use as proxies for Brotherhood.
Unless Mantic redo their Paladins (both foot and mounted) in a way that makes conversions easy.
Or another company makes some good grey plastic fantasy knights glances at Fireforge Games Albion faction in Forgotten World (yes I know they have knights but those are just their historical models with helmet swaps that are not as nice looking as the models that were made for that game proper.)
If either of those things happen TOW has literally no interest for me models wise.
Self fulfilling prophecy
You must play a GW because this is the game that is always played while others come and go and you waste time and money, so everyone buys into that no matter if they play or not
Usually coming from people who don’t play much but just need am excuse to collect (which some surveys let you guess is the majority of the fanbase, hence why bad rules/game is a non issue)
The irony is that the same people claim that GW needed to remove Warhammer because no one played it and a single 40k box was sold more than the whole fantasy range
And I doubt that when the game was not played (expensive, lots of models needed, inconsistent model lines), releasing the very same one will change that
Or the game was played and GW had no reason to kill it other than copyright issues
They are re-releasing the old ones, so not sure if this will be what you want
yet Norba Miniatures is selling models with the classic Bretonnia style, and although resin have a good chance to be cheaper than GW
My current suggestions for Brotherhood (both of them) are:
Victrix Normans, mixed with Saxon Thegns for Paladins and Stormcast or Mantic models for Ogres (though their unarmoured cavalry is yet not released) for Brothermark
Perry 1400-1500 range, makes a more Excalibur themed army for order of the Green Lady, with the idea of adding the upcoming Ravens with Knights as Forsaken
Fireforge Games are the only one with barded horses for crusader themed armies, yet these models are not very good and their Fantasy Line is missing the heavy Cavalry
if you have money to burn and access to a 3D printer Raging Heroes Arthurian Legends is an option
If Mantic redo their dwarves this year i doubt i will have the time (or budget) to do anything Brotherhood related and by that time I’ll probably have made up my mind what style i want them to go with.
The newer byzantine cavalry from Fireforge is larger than the older crusader ranges and is very nice
I enjoy the rules for kow much more than any ruleset for whfb. The multibasing concept is a huge win for me as well.
From my perspective, the old world has the setting and narrative that ive enjoyed since the days before when i was a younger fellow grabbing the boxed game of bretonnians and lizardmen.
Ive missed ulthuan but my wallet and headaches from overconplicated rules will probably keep me from really diving into it.
I do miss ulthuan though.
I’ll play it with Mantic minis, and have an army ready to play from day one.
They are possibly/likely messing with base sizes for this very reason … to make 3rd party minis from other games (and coincidentially their own minis from their own old games …) : : harder to use. Possibly there will be regiment bases from 3rd party vendors with slots for 20mm bases, but still, likely gonna be at least somewhat of a mess converting whole armies just for the old world.