The visibility rules for shooting at enemy ships are provided at page 23 in the Armada rulebook. I am sorry to say the text there is written in a rather messy way, so it took us a while to find out how one should decide whether the target ship is fully visible or only partially visible. First of all the rules say when the visibility to a target is blocked, no problem on this part. Then, the partial visibility is defined as fulfillment of at least one of these two conditions:
If a clear unobscured line can be drawn to some, but not more than half the target base (from any part of the shooting ship’s base in that weapon position)
If less than half of the target’s base is within the fire arc.
Finally, it is stated that the target is fully visible if the visibility is neither blocked, nor the target is partially visible (i.e. neither of the conditions above is met).
Well, I would find it easier to read if the rules specified when is the visibility blocked and when the target ship is fully visible with the other cases ruled as partially visible but OK …
So, let us have a look how the rules work in two specific cases:
Example 1 (it actually happened in our game):
The ship A shoots at ship C from the broadside. In spite of the ship B blocking most of the broadside weapons on ship A, neither of the conditions for partial visibility applies, so the ship C is fully visible. Is it really meant to be so?!
Example 2:
A small ship A (50 mm long) shoots at an XL ship C (125 mm long) from the broadside. As the condition 2) is fulfilled the target ship is partially visible. Really?!
I guess the visibility rules should be rewritten …
Initially I withheld from providing an opinion in the topic, but now am after so many games where this came up that I started to wholeheartedly agree on the issue.
Still I don’t know how to rewrite these rules in order for them to work correctly. There are two different types of firing arcs and what works for one might not necessarily work for the other.
Personally I would prefer simple rules, like if any part of enemy base is obscured from any part of your firing arc, the target is Partially Visible.
So in order to gain Full Visibility you would basically need to see entire base with an unobstructed line from every point of your relevant firing arc.
This would invalidate example 3 in the rulebook, as it would then be possible to have Full Visibility while only part of enemy base is within the firing arc, but it would also eliminate shooting on Full Vis, when most of your firing arc is obstructed, but you have a line from a single point of the base to entire enemy base.
Thanks for posting your response and view on the matter. I hoped the problem would have been brought to the attention of people who may do something about it but apparently it got lost somehow …
Sure, the described problem with visibility is not restricted to marginal cases, I guess it occurs rather regularly but maybe people are just not aware of the exact rules and treat any specific situations in ways they automatically think what should be right. I believe noone would feel well arguing that the ship A does not have a full visibility at ship B in the second example I provided. Though, the rules (as written) say otherwise. In fact, quite a similar situation can occur when the ship fires from a (relatively narrow) front arc at an enemy ship standing very near in front of it. Again, the visibility seems to be fine, but the target ship may not have more than half of its base in the firing arc …
Is there a simple solution to the problem. Unfortunately, I do not think any simple rewording or clarification would do. In my view it requires a conceptual change. First of all, I would find it much better if the rules explained when the visibility is blocked (this is fine as it is), then when the ship has full visibility on the target and the other cases were declared as “partial visibility”. It seems really odd to do it the other way, defining blocked and partial visibility, then declaring the rest as full visibility.
When thinking about it I would define the full visibility this way:
the target is at least partially (just a point or two would not do) in the firing arc
it is possible to draw unobscured lines from this part of the target ship to more than half of the side of the attacking ship from which it is fired
Alternatively, the second condition may be reformulated to say it from the point of view of the attacking/firing ship, e.g. that one can draw unobscured lines from more than half of the ship side to the part of the target ship that is in the firing arc.
This would mean that the target ship would be “fully visible” for a purpose of firing at it even if it would not have majority of its base in the fire arc, but this would be fine with me. As far as the ship sees at least part of the target, it can concentrate its firepower on the visible part. For me, it is worse to treat the first example provided in my OP as a “full visibility” while the guns located behind the ship B have no view on the target ship.
Agree totally. The same was with me and my group. Even though we talked this issue before, somehow every now and then our collective interpretation switches and everyone is treating partial visibility different than in the rulebook (everyone would threat your second example as partial visibility by default).
As for any rules adjustments I would rather avoid any arithmetic like “if at least half”. This kind of rules always leads to some issues when two sides cannot agree on a situation. In my opinion better to go with “if any part of target ship is obscured from any point within firing arc” or something. Keep it as simple and as easy to judge as possible.
@both, thanks for bringing this up. I haven’t played that many games of Armada, so I have little to add to the discussion. The examples you give clearly shows that the Rules As Writen don’t match the Rules as Intended!
The longer I think about it I am more inclined to agree with you. What would you say on these rules for full visibility:
the target ship base is at least partially in the firing arc
it is possible to draw an unobscured line to this part of the target ship from all points on the firing side of the attacking ship
I really like it this way as full visibility then means that no gun (or other weaponry) on the firing side of the attacking ship is blocked by another ship or terrain in between the attacker and the target. When compared with the current rules this rule would be more demanding on positioning of the attacking ship but it is compensated by not requiring the target to be mostly in the firing arc (any small part of it suffices), so the advantages and disadvantages of making the rule change may compensate each other. However, we are not in a position to change any rules. I guess we can just bring it to an attention of @mattjgilbert .
Would end up like this: * it is possible to draw an unobscured line to the entire base of the target ship from all points on the firing side of the attacking ship.
This would allow to avoid a situation described in your second example, when a piece of a ship is able to shoot enemy ship with full vis even though most of the firing arc is behind an obstacle.
Positioning firing arc would still mean a lot, for Raking Fire - so it’s not like it would be invalidated.
We’re not and from my standpoint it’s good. We’re just talking an issue, engaging about a game we like. Good enough for me. If Mantic Games decides to act upon it - all the better. In general I am against community pushing rules changes. This time around I believe an official FAQ document with an errata on this particular rule would be nice. We’re expecting an official FAQ anyway so it seems like a good moment.
Well, I find it unnecessary to extend the view to the full target base including pieces that are out of the fire arc. I suppose the guns (or any other weaponry) can aim at the target only within the fire arc, so what is a reason to require a view at the whole ship.
I guess you mean my first example. Anyway, both my examples are fine (in the first ship A has only a partial vision on ship C, in the second there is a full visibility both ways) with the rules as formulated in my previous post.
Basically to avoid any confusion. When ships are tight in large numbers it is sometimes difficult to draw a line of firing arc. Most cases it is obvious and you know the target is at least partially within the firing arc, but to draw a line exactly within the arc might be an inconvenience.
Your version is solid and I would be totally ok to leave it as is. My proposal is just to remove another layer of checking for an exact firing arc. Speeding up the process. Making it more intuitive. (That’s what I think, I might be wrong).
Yes, sorry. I don’t know WTF happened to my brain
In fact, quite a similar situation can occur when the ship fires from a (relatively narrow) front arc at an enemy ship standing very near in front of it. Again, the visibility seems to be fine, but the target ship may not have more than half of its base in the firing arc …
Anyway, both my examples are fine (in the first ship A has only a partial vision on ship C, in the second there is a full visibility both ways) with the rules as formulated in my previous post.