Questions on Shooting and Terrain

Rules Discussion
1

Hey all! I have not run many shooting lists, but am starting to explore it more. However, our group is new, and not been consistent with some of the rules. I think we are getting some things wrong, particularly with shooting and terrain.

Example 1:
My unit moves into Height 0, difficult terrain. It’s target is not stealthy, nor an individual, and is not granted cover. My unit does not have Steady Aim, so should take a -1 penalty for moving into the terrain, and another -1 penalty for moving and shooting.

Example 2:
My unit moves into Height 0, difficult terrain. It’s target is not stealthy, nor an individual, and is not granted cover. My unit does have Steady Aim, so should take a -1 penalty for moving into the terrain, but my unit ignores the -1 penalty for moving and shooting.

Example 3:
My unit moves out of difficult terrain, but and ends the phase with the rear 30% of its base still within that difficult terrain. It’s leader point is out of the terrain. It’s target is not stealthy, nor an individual, and is not granted cover. My unit does have Steady Aim, so ignores the -1 penalty for moving and shooting, but should still take a -1 penalty for ending partially in the terrain.

Example 4:
My unit moves into Height 0, difficult terrain. It has Pathfinder, and Steady Aim. It’s target is not stealthy, nor an individual, and is not granted cover. My unit ignores the -1 penalty for moving and shooting. Does Pathfinder let the unit ignore the difficult terrain penalty?

For all of the above, Individual penalties, or stealthy or cover penalties would also apply as well, when applicable, but I was trying to zero in on the non-cover-related penalties.

Lastly, does the height of the difficult terrain matter for any of this? My assumption is no: the leader point of the unit in these examples are either within the terrain or beyond it, so line of sight should not be an issue.

I’d appreciate someone checking my thinking here. Thanks!

2

1 and 2 are correct.

With 3, the moving point is relevant to your unit’s leader point and LoS. As the leader point is out of the terrain there is no penalty. [“for determining whether an enemy unit is an Obscured Target”]

4 - Pathfinder has no impact on shooting

Terrain height effect kicks in if less than 3 lower than shooter/target [Intervening units/terrain that are three Height levels smaller than either the firing unit or the target do not provide an Obscured Target. For example, LoS passing over a Height 1 units/terrain to a Height 4 unit would not provide an Obscured Target.]

1 Like
3

I think the only thing that bugs me about these situations is the use of Height 0 terrain.
I am really not sure if height 0 terrain is supposed to be a thing that grants “obscured”/cover in KOW.
For the longest time, terrain was either flat or had a height. Then someone introduced “height 0” which was not the same as Flat.
I find that confusing and annoying.
My gut tells me that they are only to provide an upper limit to how large units can hide (“concealed”) in them, such as the example in the rulebook about the giant in a pond.
Meaning that I think height 0 terrain should not give any penalties when shooting across it or out from it. But it might not be consensus in how it is currently played.
What is the terrain in these hypothetical examples? Water features or fields etc?

2 Likes
4

I can understand the general purpose of both flat and H0 terrain, in that they operate slightly differently - but it is a bit of a weird concept to get your head round. Think it came in when unit heights got ‘bigger’ in an early version of the rule - so the 3 height level difference had a different impact?

Flat (usually Difficult) terrain does not have a height value and is treated the same as open ground for the purposes of Line of Sight and establishing if a unit is an Obscured Target. Flat Difficult terrain is counted as height 1 for the purposes of checking if a unit is a Concealed Target.

Difficult Terrain that does not have a height value (flat terrain) is always treated as open ground for the purposes of determining an Obscured Target.

1 Like
5

Really? I can’t recall that from the cover section.

1 Like
6

On the topic of flat terrain and obscuring, from the Companion app rules section:

“Difficult Terrain that does not have a height value (flat terrain) is always treated as open ground for the purposes of determining an Obscured Target.”

1 Like
7

My take on the original questions: if playing the difficult terrain as height 0 (so not flat), then it always depends on the height of the shooting unit and the target.

I don’t think the rules have any special cases defined for terrain the shooting unit is in contact with, except the Halt order case. Terrain that the shooting unit is in contact with simply is “intervening terrain” and as such is causes an Obscured target, which is dependent on the height difference.

Again from the Companion:

" Obscured Target P32

In cases when the target unit is partially visible behind another unit or terrain piece, they are considered to be an Obscured Target. An Obscured Target is classed as being in Cover.

To determine whether the target unit is an Obscured Target, draw LoS from the Leader Point of the firing unit to the facing and arc of the target unit that the firing unit is in (front, rear or either flank). If, when drawing this LoS, at least half of the target units facing is behind intervening units or terrain (including Difficult Terrain the target unit is in contact with), then the target unit is considered an Obscured Target.

Intervening units/terrain that are three Height levels smaller than either the firing unit or the target do not provide an Obscured Target. For example, LoS passing over a Height 1 units/terrain to a Height 4 unit would not provide an Obscured Target.

Difficult Terrain

A firing unit that received a Halt order in its Movement phase ignores any piece of Difficult Terrain that it is currently within, or in base contact with, for determining whether an enemy unit is an Obscured Target, unless the enemy unit is also touching or within the same piece of Difficult Terrain."

1 Like
8

Helpfully it’s in the Terrain rules section, not the Cover part!

1 Like
9

Ah, right. For Concealed it’s indeed treated as Height 1.

“iii. Flat Terrain P28
Flat (usually Difficult) terrain does not have a height value and is treated the same as open ground for the purposes of Line of Sight and establishing if a unit is an Obscured Target. Flat Difficult terrain is counted as height 1 for the purposes of checking if a unit is a Concealed Target.”

Doesn’t change the dynamics, however, when the shooting unit is the one being in terrain as per the original question. Right?

1 Like
10

Alright, so why would we ever use Height 0 terrain then?
Let’s just use flat or Height 1.

2 Likes
11

Yes I’m sure you got it right.
It’s just that I wish the examples in the thread were height 1 instead so we didnt have to go down all the rabbit holes. :smiley: It’s the use of “height zero” instead of flat that bugs me.

1 Like
12

Flat is H0 for being behind it and H1 for being in it while Height 0 is H0 for both - so most cavalry and LI benefit from the slight nuance with the former.

2 Likes
13

We just started messing about with this kind of terrain for ponds and bogs and rocky bits, and I think we have been intermixing the rules here for flat and Height 0 stuff. I somehow thought that all terrain had a Height value now, but I am long overdue for a rules reread.

I figured Height 0 would simply things, but I opened a can of worms here it seems!

Height complexities aside, the clarification on movement and shooting have been very helpful, so thank you all for that input.

3 Likes
14

Played a few events where there is negative height terrain (think quarries, deep pools etc).

The system allows lots of fun things to be done while (generally) keeping things quite straightforward

15

If I recall correctly, H0 terrain was used in second edition and caused some confusion (as 0 tends to do if you overthink it), so flat terrain was introduced in 3rd edition so that the concept could be handled better.