Shambling in 4th edition

I think it’s consensus that Empire of Dust is currently in quite a bad spot in 4th edition. Probably for multiple reasons, one of them being the lackluster command orders but another reason I think is Shambling.

Shambling in 4th edition has become much worse than in 3rd. In addition to the already quite stark disadvantage of not being able to move at the double they now also have one pivot fewer than all the other units when advancing which is arguably an even bigger downside. So shambling units are much slower and significantly less agile than other units which I admit does seem fitting for hordes of undead or lumbering rock golems.

I’m wondering though if this huge disadvantage is really accounted for when it comes to the points costs of shambling units. The question arose when I compared a Revenant Horde to a Corsair Voidwalker Horde. Both units have very similar statlines - Revenants have 1 more Nerve, Corsairs have 1 more Speed - and they have exactly the same price.

Of course where they really start to go apart is in their special rules. Revenants get Crushing(1), Fearless, Lifeleach(1) and of course Shambling. Corsairs get Elite(Combat) and Ensnare. You could argue that Crushing(1), Fearless and Lifeleach(1) are equal to Elite(Combat) and Ensnare - though I don’t think so. Elite on a Me 4+ unit is pretty good and Ensnare is one of the best special rules in the game. Crushing Strength is of course always nice but Fearless and Lifeleach are rather niche and unlikely to make a difference most of the time.

But that is all while completely ignoring Shambling. If you don’t have Surge then Shambling is such a huge downside in 4th edition that it should warrant a pretty hefty price discount. How much of a discount? That would need to be determined and it’s probably more complicated than just a flat -X pts because more things would need to be accounted for. But if you ignore Surge then that much is obvious, right? Shambling is a big downside and would warrant a discount.

Now I know what you might be saying. Shambling is not only a disadvantage! Shambling allows a unit to be surged. And to this I would say: Exactly. It allows a unit to be surged. Surge does not come with the shambling unit built in. And that is where Shambling got hit in 4th edition again because in order to surge a unit you need something, most of the time a hero, to cast Surge on it. And what got a sizeable price increase in 4th edition? Exactly - heroes.

I would argue, even ignoring the whole champion tax that came with 4th edition, that Shambling is 100% a downside and you only unluck (and pay for) its upside when you buy a unit with Surge. Therefore the shambling unit itself should be significantly cheaper. But looking at the comparison I made before I am doubting that this is currently a thing.

Alright, so much for my rant but what do you think? Do I make any sense or am I just venting?

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Why do shambling units only get one pivot?

You always need/needed some surge casters for shambling units, otherwise there are no surprise flank charges :grin:

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Because that’s what the rule says.

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no discount for Surge, extra points for Surge casters, but don’t worry. They’ll fix it when they finally get their book

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I like the shambling change. It’s more thematic and feels right.

Balancing shambling seems to be a challenge though.
I recall that shambling units were undercosted (long ago), but with easy access to surge shambling was actually an advantage. Which put undead far up the power curve. It took much work with the nerf bat (and despair of the undead players) to get Undead back in line.

Now that shambling is a real disadvantage and anything heroes do is harder to come by, the lists don’t all seem to quite be in 4th yet.
Getting it all right on paper for something hard to balance is a big ask, so hopefully they’ll hammer in all these knock on effects soon.

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Coming from the elemental side of things, I’ve run my Earth Elemental army a couple times this edition (as Nature, since Free Dwarfs aren’t a thing currently) … and I think I’m going to put them aside for a while. All the shambling parts of the army feel catatonically slow - yes, Earth Elementals are just as slow as they ever were, but the speed cut to greaters is really noticeable, as are non-shamblers feeling much faster. Plus I feel like there are more scenarios being introduced that require fairly significant movement. Like the new Raze, where you have to get to the enemy deployment zone. Without an order to turn off shambling, this seems like a brutal ask.

Note that I did very little surging in 3E, and that continues to be the case in 4E.* My bad feels are purely based on (slow) shamblers feeling even slower. Admittedly, I also feel bad because Earth Elementals, for all their De 6+ and healing available in the Nature list, kind of crumble away this edition. The meta has always been about taking the most efficient hammers, but I feel like that’s worse now with the slot situation. And when somebody does want to grind, Earth took a damage output hit, so I often lose my tough bois to flanks I can’t do anything about.

*RIP to the corkscrewing / sideways surging GEE :pouring_liquid:

I’m curious what the next book does for Nature, tho I doubt we’ll see the AE reg or GFE fall from their seats at the head of the table, since they’ve weathered the edition changes the best (and are also quite tuned). IMO the most viable shambling buffs are ways to remove it, not that Undead are lighting the world on fire with that currently.

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One key downside now with shambling units is the increased cost and more limited availability of surge casters.

Shamblers don’t technically need Surge to function, but it is a bit like fighting with one hand tied behind your back.

Not being able to target a withdrawing unit with surge has impacted their tactical use, as has the already mentioned limit of pivots.

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Shambling units have a tough life nowadays. Every other unit is allowed to pivot twice, which makes it harder to get a good position (for a flank charge) or not to get maneuvered out by the enemy.

And last editions weren’t so restricting in characters, but now you won’t see 5 cheap chars (so expensive…) and 4 of them having surge.

As you mentioned (free) dwarfs - they suffer from everybody having ordered march now. They are just slower.

I*ve got the impression they rushed the rules here.

I don’t think it would be to strong if shambling units would be able to get surged into combat after a withdrawal.

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What would be the point? To enable some other units shooting at the enemy before sending them in again? Or to utilize thunderous charge?

Would allowing the surge itself one pivot break the game?

Even if it was one pivot at the start of the surge.

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That idea sounds neat. Could even do a simple command that gives extra pivots to shambling units. Or certain surge units (like necromancers, druids, high priests) having a Threshold Surge value with extra benefits. I know that this idea may add too much complexity but it would be super cool and flavourful for big Surge rolls (3+ successes or something) to have an extra benefit like an extra pivot or +1TC or something.

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Design-wise, Enthrall, Wind Blast and Surge all share similar design space. I don’t think we want to tack on a pivot as part of the spell effect to any of these.

The Dwarf Stone Priest already does this with the “Quake” Special Rule: Elementals hit by Surge have TC1 until the end of the turn. There is precedent, and yeah, I think Special Rules and Casters is where you have fun with this “extras” idea, not the base spell. We have Heal Commands and such, we could see something similar pop up in future releases.

Two pivots makes Surging Flank charges significantly easier to achieve, and think the designers were just being conservative, looking to avoid “feels bad” moments, since so many other fundamental movement rules changed this edition. The issue is that Shamblers are getting it from all sides, summarizing some ideas above:

  • Shamblers already cannot move at the double. With everything getting “Ordered March” in the new Edition, the Shamblers are already slower and less mobile than every other unit.
  • Hero prices got hiked, and are harder to unlock with the slot approach now, so there are fewer Surge sources around in a given game. For example, the Undead Revenant King went from 80 pts in 3E to 145 pts in 4E.
  • Surge as a spell also increased in price. Again with the Undead Revenant King, 3E had Surge (5) for 10 pts, 4E has Surge (5) for 20 pts. Again for Undead, we lost a lot of big Surge Casters like Mhorgoth and the Liche King. In 4E we get Zuinok, and the Wyrms with Surge (8) … and that’s it, and these are all competing for a Warlord slot. The Necromancer is Surge (6), but doesn’t Inspire, making it harder to justify, and everything else Surge (5), for a price.

Fewer sources, smaller spells, and points increases at multiple junctions is just rough.

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