The change of the Goblin Bangsticks- what do we think?

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The goblin formation has been part of my goblin armies since it was introduced in KoW3. Now with the new Clash The formation been changed. This change makes me to drop the formation and fleabags from my armies altogether and this blog post describes why.

(here’s them, in all the former glory, btw)

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The formation used to be:
2 fleabag rider regiments that cost 10 points more and gain:
Bangsticks (exploding sixes that also wound the unit one point) AND TC +1

plus a mounted king that grants cavalry elite and has the same bangstick rule for +15 points.

Now this has been changed to:

-Any fleabag regiment may buy the Bangstck rule rfor +15 points

The formation used to be a fast and fairly hard-hitting light calvarly unit that was very fragile (13/15 def 4+) and due to wounding itself would inevitably last only a single charge as even the lightest return charge would kill it.

It was, however, a strong canopener that could deal with high defense units, something that goblins struggle with. It also had remarkably synergy with the goblin shooting contignent and units like the Groany Snark.

Now with the new rules, fleabags got a lot less attractive. The difference may not look as much at first glance, but it’s quite a lot. Here’s the math (assuming no hindered charges.)

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(Comparison excluding mawpups. If you want thats +10 points for 1.5 additional wound vs def 5+)

Due tot he combination of special rules (Elite AND vicious AND exploding sixes) a 14-attack melee 4+ unit did on average 8.2 wounds. This is damage comparable to a knight unit. The tradeoff, of course, was their fragility and self-wounding.

As I’m looking for 10+ wounds to reliably waver (and possibly kill) a 15/17 defense 5+ unit, such as a unit of dwarf clansmen, the old fleabags were almost enough to do this amount of damage. Joined by the mounted king or charging a wounded unit would be enough to destroy the charged unit. If I got a flank, the fleabags would kill invariably.

The new fleabags, however, need help even when they get a flank. (almost 9 wounds vs def 5+ when doubling attacks). This means that this 170 (!) point unit cannot reliably kill of a regiment of dwarf clansmen when charging it in a flank. In this situation, they will do 6 damage to the dwarves, maybe waver then and deal themselves 2.5 wounds in the process. Then, they will be destroyed (or at least wavered) in the counterattack due to their low defense and nerve. This means, they have failed their purpose.

The old formation was a grand addition to the goblin army, a counterpunch sorely needed in an army that relies mainly on shooting. The new fleabag units are much less useful and the bangstick upgrade is definately not worth the 15 points.

The advantage of owning more than one army is that one can choose which army to play in a new edition, so there’s plenty of other goodness to look at this year!

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The Elite aura made the formation as you say and it did seem one of the more popular formations.

Think the first raft of events using the CoK25 changes are coming up, so will be interesting to see how things develop.

Phalanx & ensnare on the sharpsticks in the new formation is handy, but don’t think it will be taken as frequently.

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Oh yes, the new formation is okay too!

a pair of 100 point units with ensnare AND phalanx are great roadblocks,though I’m not sure about the additional value of giving ensnare to a defense 6+ unit. all-in the new formation is defensive in nature, while goblins lack offensive tools.

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I’m not a pro player, but I’m disappointed with this formation. It doesn’t really seem to align with the goblin way. I expect something explosive: powerful but capable of backfiring on the player due to a bad dice roll. As for power, I haven’t tested it, but I’m not sure Ensnare can buy the Sharpsticks another turn. For the Mincer, it seems more interesting. So, we’ll see in tournaments.

My disappointment is also related to the fact that I looked at the Dwarves’ formation, which seems much stronger to me… I’ll be facing Dwarves soon with my Goblins, and I’m worried I’ll be up against an unbreakable wall :sweat_smile:

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I really wish the Royal Guard formation had been removed, what an oppressive auto-include that we’re stuck with until 4E now. In my mind, formations should be mediocre but do something interesting. It’s pretty clear that Mantic would like them to be tied to ambush boxes as well. I can jive with that. It’s a bummer that when faced with what to do about armies without ambush boxes, they left the existing formations alone rather then rework them or remove them entirely. No ambush? No formation, sorry.

As for the bangsticks, I’m happy to see the tech wrapped back into the army itself, like what happened for Ogre chariots. I low key didn’t like the Goblin formation because it was in virtually every Goblin list. That alone shows the formation was too strong.

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Yeah, dwarves is a touch match-up for goblins, as we have trouble blasting through a lot of high defense nerve. trolls, troll bruisers, giants and big rock lobba’s are your friends here. Too bad, there’s almost no real goblins in this list.

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Agree with the sentiment that the tech should be in the army itself, but the units and its upgrade is too expensive now.

As for the previous formation, I really liked it as it did something goblins had a hard-time doing, hitting enemy units hard enough to kill them. Was it too good? Probably, but thats (I think) more due to its insane mobility.

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I really love the concept of the BangSticks and loved the idea of the old formation. Sad to see it go as I only just got these modelled recently with the hope of playing them in 2025. :upside_down_face::disappointed:. I ran two regiments with the upgrade at the Kingmas Bash Dec. 24 AKA formation style. I missed Elite. As described above, by @Vince, the maths proves true on the table. The regiments just couldn’t really do the damage required for the points. They are so middle-of-the-road. I think the new upgrade really only makes sense at the Horde level. Where it is points efficient and the larger nerve makes you more resilient to the self inflicted wounds.
I pan to run a horde of Explodomatic Bang-Sticks at Cancon25 AU. I will probably also run them with the Brew of Sharpness. Putting expensive items on self-destructing units is really a gamble but the Gobbos don’t really have another can opener. Like the chariot legion, this massive based unit needs to be used more like a scalpel than a hammer.

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Last weekend there was a 42 player 2300pt 1 day event using the new rules (no command dice) and there were 2 goblin lists.

One was entirely mounted/slasher vibe which had 2 hordes and 3 regiments of fleabags, all with bangsticks. The other was a more mixed arms list, which included the new formation and 3 regiments of fleabags - these didn’t have the bangstick upgrade but a couple were given artifacts (sharpness & elite).

First list finished 29th (W1, L2), the second 16th (W2, L1)

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I’ve tried the “goblin alpha strike” archtype a few times too. Love the idea of a fleabag/slasher/chariot army supported by wingits and Groany. The idea of fast but fragile army looking to exploit weak points to dislodge the enemy army is sound.

Sadly, the combination of 4+ to hit, too few damage does not outweigh the fragility of the units. The fleabags are an essential part of this problem, as are the chariots. They are not good enough on their own and the slasher does provide some synergy, but this is too situational and too little. Moreover, the slasher on its own is too espensive for what it does.

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I would have liked to do the Slasher-beast synergy thing but felt I could not fit this in the list for the points and include the trolls. My first rule in list building. “If I’ve just painted it- it’s going in”!!.

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