US-Masters results and lists

DISCLAIMER:

I used a translation tool for this text. But I didn’t want to write such a long piece of text by hand.
It might make more sense in my own language, but my thoughts often just race through my head, so not everyone understands what I’m getting at.

And I’m only writing all this because KoW has become my absolute favorite game, even though I used to love and be obsessed with Warhammer Fantasy. But I just can’t get into The Old World.
That’s why I’m just trying to hold onto the fun of this game, which is harder than it should be because of the major changes from previous editions.

Ranting in English is quite tough. The language sounds so kind all the time. It`s way more easy to rant and moan in German. We mastered this aspect of languages.

END OF DISCLAIMER

I took the liberty of checking out the results of the US Masters and the most successful lists. But it’s not really that fun, because there isn’t much to see. The lists are all pretty much the same and use only a few of their unit selections.
Supposedly, the new system was introduced for army building because many people found spamming units to be annoying. Well, I still believe that this system only intensifies and shifts the problem of spamming. Instead of allowing players to spam any unit they want—which would have created more variety (since it wasn’t always the same units being spammed)—players are now churning out core units nonstop, along with support war machines (even though many armies have interesting, fun units hidden among them).
Personally, I’ve played 3x Gargoyles a few times; other than that, I haven’t used any unit more than twice. The exception is Oger Warriors, but they’re a special case, and that army doesn’t exactly have a lot of variety.
First, a few numbers on the composition of the Top 15:
4x Ratkin
3x Goblins
2x Salamanders
2x Forces of Nature, which won’t be discussed in depth here since their list has changed significantly
1x Elves, Northern Alliance, and Kingdom of Men

There’s certainly not much variation among the top spots. It also supports the claim that ratkins and goblins are among the strongest armies.
If you take a closer look at the lists now, you’ll see a clear trend:
Concentrated fire from war machines or smaller units and mages with spells like Blizzard and Alchemist’s Curse, supplemented by (relatively) inexpensive hordes.
Here’s a short list of units that appeared very frequently.
Wretches: 3 4 4
Mother Cryza: 1 1 1
Scudku-zluk: 1 1
Shock Troops Hordes: 3 4 3 3
Shredder: 2 2 4
Blight Spewer: 2 2 2
Here is a breakdown of the selected units/characters and how many each army offers:
8 selections out of 25/26 (inconsistently, spears are sometimes an option and sometimes a separate unit) – 2 units used 3 times
6 – 2 units used 4 times
9 selections – 1 unit used 5 times
7 selections – 1 unit used 3 times, one used 4 times, and even the same support unit used 4 times

The goblins aren’t about to be outdone either, shining with monotony and a lack of variety.
Goblins:
Rabble: 8 (regiments) 14 (!) 6
Sharpstick Thrower: 4
War-Trombone: 3 3 4
Big Rock Throwers: 4

7 out of 30
5 (!) – Goblins seem to have good internal balance…
9 out of 30
At least 3 war machines were actually used here! So it doesn’t seem to matter all that much how you bombard your opponent from a distance—the main thing is to go all out.

Salamanders are a bit more expensive and don’t quite offer the same options. After all, there are still those useless Salamanders—it’s not just Ghekkotahs!
But you can at least give it a try:

Ghekkotah Warriors: 5 Regiments 4
Komodons: 4 4
7 & 8 out of 30/31 (!)
This army has so many different units and characters, but using just a quarter of them is enough…
What’s most important, once again, is the combination of cheap trash units and massive firepower.

And then there’s one more special mention:
Northern Alliance: 8 out of 29 selections (excluding Magnilde and her unlockables)
Noteworthy are the 5 regiments of Packhunters with Javelins.
If you don’t have cheap war machines with Blast like the 3 mentioned earlier, you just have to get a little more creative.
But 12 shots with Piercing 1 against a 4 or even a 3 isn’t bad either. And if you can do that 5 times…

Tournaments certainly aren’t for everyone, nor are they the Holy Grail. But tournaments reveal a system’s problems and highlight the peaks in the meta. Especially at a tournament like the Masters, experienced and skilled players come together—players who have demonstrated over time that they understand the game. And because of that, they know which units and strategies are necessary for success. You don’t have to share their attitude toward the game or even approve of it, but you have to acknowledge that these players uncover vulnerabilities—and those vulnerabilities can be exploited by any player, sometimes even unintentionally.
Of course, one might argue that the extreme spamming of core units and war machines/artillery isn’t a problem for casual players because they can simply choose not to play that way.
But then the new system lacks any legitimacy. Even with the rules of the previous edition, it was possible to field “nice” armies without deploying the strongest units countless times.
And I don’t think the changes to artillery are good. It makes little sense anyway that units are now only routed once they’ve already taken more damage than their nerve value.

Without this change, though, players would probably rely even more heavily on shooting, since it seems to pay off. One reason I see for this is the 5+ save rolls on many war machines, combined with the +1 bonus for not moving. It may have been a well-intentioned change, but it sucks…
And it should have been noticed during proper test games. After all, the Masters participants didn’t invent a new game—they’re just using the options they’ve had for barely half a year.
The old system didn’t cause these kinds of problems and didn’t take units like the Elven Silverbreeze Cavalry out of the game.
My solution: bring back the old rules, including Steady Aim!
Either there’s almost no shooting at all—because you can’t even take out chaff with it—or shooting is taken to the extreme.
Personally, I used to enjoy every aspect of the game more before: whether it was list-building, the game itself, the opponents’ lists, or the visuals on the battlefield.

7 Likes

Another reason for Ratkins’ success are probably their command orders. Both are really good. One strengthens their defense. Hordes of with Ensnare - why not.

And Strider is one of the most useful rules there are. Combined with a slightly higher speed you can hide in terrain or behind obstacles and charge out.

And a horde of Shock troops will be good for 7 wounds or even more without any support of magic items or banechant.

Combined with the shooting to soften up opponents and tarpits of Wretches - who would complain?

But very boring if your army consists of Shock Troops, Wretched, warmachines and maybe 1 or 2 quicker units plus characters only…

And apparently Mother Cryza is too good. If 3 of 4 lists take her, there is an issue with balancing. Either somebody needs to get tuned down or others need to be buffed.

Because in a balanced system players would pick several characters and not always the same.

5 Likes

Rants are fine, welcome, and hopefully stimulate discussion. It certainly seems there is a bit of an issue to be balanced.

2 questions:

  1. What is the change that makes rabble spam so effective compared to last edition?
  2. What are your suggested fixes for the current issues?

As a comment, for me and the players I have played locally, we prefer 4th to 3rd, though we are not anywhere near masters level I would say. The reason this is relevant is that any adjustments need to both fix the problem at the “elite” level and not cause issues for those at a more casual level. In general though, balancing is good no matter what level you are playing at!

P.S. On language, yes, English (British English in particular) is very indirect. Saying things directly often comes across rude even when it’s not meant that way. A minefield for non natives (and some Americans!). There are various British to American “translations” on the internet that are quite humorous!

4 Likes

Several changes I would say.

One are the changes to shooting. You can’t hit them with one or two units, cause 9 wounds and have a nice probability to get rid of them. You need to cause 15 damage now…

Another reason are probably the changes to movement. Even now it’s not that easy to handle all the units, but being able to pivot twice during movement and once with doubled speed makes it way easier then before.

You needed Hordes last edition for characters, war machines and monsters. Now you don’t. A cheap regiment offers the same for less.

There are less units to choose from. Last edition they competed with Trolls for example. Now this is no option anymore.

And they are so cheap… . In a system where you aim to be able to include a second battalion because so many units or characters are limited to 2, you grab the cheapest unit and take war machine number 3 and 4 or wizards 3 and 4…

Many armies can’t do that, but their wizards or warmachines aren’t way better, just more expensive.

That would be just a couple of reasons coming to my mind right now.

Solutions? That would take more time I fear.

And lower temperature- this summer cooks Europe.

3 Likes

Would something simple like a max of 5 of any unit work? It’s certainly the bluntest way to do it. Are there some unintended consequences of that?

1 Like

For those interested in picking at the US Masters, here are some additional resources for the event:
Stream Day 1
Stream Day 2
Lists (This even highlights some unit duplication figures too!)
Results (Including round by-round match-ups and detail)
…And I am sure Data and Dice will have a breakdown in the next week or so.

5 Likes

Might be worth breaking the balance concerns to another threat, but as long as I am typing, with regards to those balance discussions and takeaways from the tourney… some 40 games in, I am liking most of the 4E changes. List building and the pseudo-codex releases are the largest sore spots.

The slots-approach apparently puts Kings in-line with many of Mantic’s other games, with regards to design and organization (peaking at Deadzone, this does look to be the case, with Specialist and Support slots there too, though I have no real experience with any of their other games)… but for Kings this change was a solution in search of a problem. They already had the bracket tools, like [*] or [n] to limit unusually potent units, and they could have changed the points threshold required to run another multiple of a hero/monster/war machine, or even expanded that limit to everything (eg. Games under 1,000 pts can run 1x of anything; games between 1,000 and 2,000 points can run 2x of anything, etc).

I don’t think this works with the current battalion approach. Basically everything besides Core/Aux is already very limited, and if you add an over-arching restriction to cover both battalions to smack down something like Goblin Rabble spam… why have battalions? Mind you, I think doing away with Battalions and having a more blankety restriction like this would feel better.

I actually know this guy – obviously a very skilled and serious player, and he was on the top tables last year too, with one of the toughest schedules. The NA Packhunters have a quirk that their bow shooting is 5+, but Javelins are 4+, and the switch costs nothing. The Trident Realms had a similar unit that was caught and errata’ed, but not these, and so he wass trying to do the same gimmick. With limits to how many units can be engaged in combat, focusing firing from shooting can be quite strong. (Also worth noting is his Ice Kin + Frostclaw tech, designed to all-but guaranty the birds get their charge via Frostbiting their target.)

Mother Cryza is just strong and versatile, especially for rats. She’s a Large Infantry character (so can pick up Loot Tokens), has good spells, good special rules, and has an amazing slot swap for the army, letting the Wretches become unlocking Core units, allowing the Ratkin player to drop multiple US4, Ne20+ units for 105 points. She’s got a lot going on, but the swap is what fuels the “vermintide” approach common now, with lots and lots of Unit Strength.

Similarly, the 14+ Goblin Rabble lists just dumps lots of US on the table, and most lists will struggle to cut through it all by the game end. (I played against one such earlier this year) Goblins and their cheapness have been a balancing nightmare for a long time. (Eg. back in 2E, Goblin Spitters/Archers spam basically broke the last year or so of the game.)

I would imagine Cryza and such gets tweaked down the road - a byproduct of their approach to releases. Newer armies are already exploring more limited slot swaps, like FoA’s Blood Masque putting a single Horsemen regiment to Core. Additionally there is rumor of Unit Strength being more of a variable as the Edition progresses and balance is adjusted, so their Wretch Hordes might stop unlocking and/or lose out on US, to be able to be bullied off objectives, for example.

I mean, shooting got a complete overhaul, and they’re coming at it from the opposite perspective now, with shooters being more static now, despite the game being more dynamic. I think we still have a lot of small errors (NA Pack Hunters, KoM Cannons hitting on 5’s down to 4’s with Aim), though it might be just as likely these are somewhat planned for, and they are trying to experiment with a variety of units and gather data while they go. I would agree though that basically any mover+shooter (FoA Flamebearers, Elf Silverbreeze, FoN Scorchwings) feel terrible now, as their Sh value got smacked but we don’t have something like Steady Aim to compensate and keep them mobile. It is frustrating, but Steady Aim/Reload have been jostling approaches for several editions now, and I’m imagine Mantic will be dialing things in as the Edition progresses.

5 Likes

2026 US Masters Recap: Ratkin, Goblins, and the Power of More Bodies – Data & Dice

Threw together a quick recap post–

6 Likes

Yeah, Jeff knows what he’s doing.

That said, without going through all the preambles, 12" shooting, especially combined with long-ranged war machines, seems very powerful.

I don’t think 14 regiments of rabble are the problem. The problem is what these unlock. And since shooting is more powerful if you take more of it, being able to unlock all those war machines and shooty characters is very powerful.

1 Like

Well, 14 units are an issue if you look at the unit strength you get for this.

In third edition US was joined with points and cheaper units did not get the same US like a unit with thesame size but way more expensive.

And I do think this is part of the problem.

Nevertheless- spamming was seen as an annoying thing in last edition and the new system should do something against it. Personally I am less bothered by a unit from special or support tripled (unless it’s a warmachine) than from an army using a core unit 6+ times. It is just boring.

And because all top Goblins at the masters did it, it is apparently very tempting and the best option.

Clearly a weakness of the new system imo and contrary as intended.

More units from special to core and from support to special could lead to more variety.

I do play Abyssals myself and I caught myself building lists with 4 units of Abyssal Guard - just because they seem to be worth it and other builds lack a lot.

1 Like

The 4 limit on Specialist units seems rather unnecessary, just ensure you have to take a Core unit for each one.

Look at how utterly subpar some of them can be (halfling brave regiments in KoM!) or how they really tie into how an ‘interesting’ army could be built around. Just make them all [2] to avoid spamming.

4 Likes

Really unnecessary is a (2) behind 90% of all champions instead making it a general rule and just mention exceptions.

Berserker Infantry in a dwarf army is limited to 2, but even if you would spam it as core it would be boring and not imbalanced.

3 Likes

" The reason this is relevant is that any adjustments need to both fix the problem at the “elite” level and not cause issues for those at a more casual level."

And yet the changes from 3rd to 4th were awful for casual players by making their model collections and lists illegal…

2 Likes

“…but for Kings this change was a solution in search of a problem.”

My thoughts exactly.

I can see some reason for it, in that the list building rules for 3rd were certainly more complex from an outside perspective. The new way is definitely simpler for new players.

Whether it’s the right choice is certainly a matter for debate.

1 Like

Why do you think the list building was more complex in 3rd?
I’m not a new player, so maybe I can’t see the issues new players would have, but list building is way more fiddly and annoying in 4th than 3rd. What was complex about 3rd?

From what I was told by people who started shortly before 4th was released the system of unlocks and too much freedom was overwhelming and hard to keep track unless using the Companion

Core unlocking Specialist, unlocking Support is easier to follow without list builder over Regiment unlocks 1 Monster or 1 Warengines or 1 Hero and Hordes unlocking 1 Monster and 1 WE and 1 Hero (specially when removing units during writing the list)
In addition there is now a more clear starting point over “any Horde is good”

Not that it makes a difference once you are used to it or have already played the game but newcomers often want a more straight forward guide on what to buy and build before they play the first game (and not need to play first to know what to buy)

3 Likes

What kodos said.

It’s fundamentally simpler (though not necessarily better)

1 Like

Alright, fair enough. I don’t think I ever found list building in Kings complex, especially compared to other games, but I started over 10 years ago, so I can’t really remember how I felt as a beginner.

The list building/unlocks in 3rd really wasn’t that straightforward, it was just something that we all got used to, rather than having to explain.

Just compare these.

2 Likes