They use an abbess on panther (an Individual) to block the large horde. They say the horde can’t charge the Elohi, but it looks like the horde can see them & is in range. Wouldn’t the horde be able to just charge through the abbess as she is a yielding Individual? (It looks like the horde can easily fit between abbess & Elohi…)
Thank you in advance for clearing this up!
Units with the Individual special rule are Yielding.This means that Enemy and Friendly units that are not Disordered may move, Charge and pivot through them as long as they end their entire movement, or the Move step of any Charge, clear of the Individual.
I think in this case, the horde is unable to connect in the correct enemy frontage while also not being “on top of” the individual? Yes it might have fit as you say, but the requirement is that it must end any/all parts of the move clear.
edit: it could actually maybe go straight ahead, pivot 90 as soon as having enough space to do so, go and hit the corner, and then be “picked up and placed” in the middle of the enemy unit?
I think the problem is that they have to pivot first which puts on top of the abess and when they move forward they don’t clear her. But it’s not very clear from the diagram.
In the diagram it actually looks like there’s plenty of room to fit in.
Ah ok, i always thought that the charge/ move has to be clear only at the end of the charge/move and not at the end of each “step” (move,pivot, etc.). Thank you guys!
I vote for this option. I am not aware of anything in the rules that would prevent it as a legal charge. There is no need to pivot first, any suitable path can do as far as it is the shortest possible way to reach the charged unit at its correct facing.
Actually, I would also interpret the “move step” part of a charge as a complete movement part before aligning and sliding the charging unit. Thus, the charging unit could pivot, be on top of the individual after the pivot, then move into contact and if it is clear of the individual at this point, it can complete the charge. However, I am not 100% sure with this interpretation. Anyway, Fred’s idea is fine even if I am wrong on the “move step” interpretation of the charge.
that was written for 2nd edition, which didn’t have yielding.
Hence the Abbess being 1" back as she rebounded after the previous combat, but the Tallspears countercharging
Be careful with Articles in 2019 as the game didn’t launch until late in the year so most will be about 2nd edition which is similar but not the same
I did some messing with the diagram in gimp, and the unit can’t pivot and clear the abbess at any point in its movement, even if it wildly overshoots her (especially with how wide it is). While it can pivot through her, it can’t end that pivot on her because the unit doesn’t fly, so no dice.
The question is what is a “move step”. In my view the charge consists of 3 steps: movement, aligning, sliding (shuffle). What makes you believe that the rule text in yielding description does not refer to a completed move step. Where does it say in the rules that the charging unit must be clear of the yielding individual in (or after) every part of a move step. It looks natural to me that a completed move step of a charge is the point when one checks whether the charging unit overlaps with the interfering individual or not.
I also checked with a ruler (aligned along the back of the individual base) that Fred’s idea about pivoting the charging unit after going far enough “below” the intervening abbess enables a legal charge, so I am not sure what exactly you tried out in gimp. Unfortunately, I am not any good with drawing pictures in a software to demonstrate it …
There is precedence in the rules for pivots and movement, that the actual pivot and separate parts of the move must end clear, so it’s not a stretch to assume the charge follows a similar logic. also we have an explicit exception for flyers who are allowed to end any parts of their move “on top of” the enemy, indirectly meaning that all non-flyers can not, I’d say.
You may well be completely right. As I stated I am not 100% sure about my interpretation. Though, the yielding rule also provides an exception from how the units move normally. The rulebook says about Yielding:
“This means that Enemy and Friendly units that are not Disordered may move, Charge and pivot through them as long as they end their entire movement, or the Move step of any Charge, clear of the Individual.”
So, the text speaks about the end of a Move step, maybe even an entire Move step …
I also find it much easier to check the overlap at one well defined point, not spend much time at looking at all possibilities, drawing pictures of all possible pivots etc. If possible, the rules should be simple to interpret, to decide if the charge is valid or not with a relative ease and quickly …
Once again, I do not say that you are wrong on the matter, I just think I may well be in my rights to interpret it as I do as far as someone does not convince me otherwise.
Not having played for months has erased much of my finer rules knowledge. I might be recalling slowly now that the only way to use a Yielding individual to stop a charge in 3rd is to be standing in the way not where the unit makes its run towards the enemy, but to stand exactly where the enemy must end up.
Glad to see we can get in agreement by looking at it from different viewpoints.
I have also not had a game of KoW for ages (though I played Armada several times).
Is that not acceptable? I’m trying to think if this has been done to me, but I’ve almost never had yielding individuals try to block me out by taking up space (and I’ve certainly not done it myself).
As for overshooting the abbess and then hard pivoting in, I wasn’t a believer, but check it out:
I think it works! Though in this case the diagram could have the rear of the abbess even with the corner of the elohi and they’re out, and it doesn’t change pivoting in from above the abbess (which doesn’t work by a long shot).
The tactic was (I believe) written in v2, so rule changes have obviously had an impact.
Think the situation now is that in order to charge block with Yielding heroes you either need to:
actually charge and do damage (since all the additional rules about moving through Yielding individuals DO NOT apply if Disordered)
position a yielding individual in such a way that the unit wanting to move/charge HAS to finish over it. The Fly rule explicitly states finishing parts of a ‘move’ over another unit - there isn’t anything equally explicit in the yielding section.
From the diagram in v3 - if the abbess simply sat there, the charge looks valid; similarly if she had charged, done no damage and the enemy unit has done a withdraw move
Thank you everyone for your replies!
In response to @Sceleris : When i position a yielding individual so that the charging unit cannot be placed, can’t the enemy simply charge the individual and then overrun into the “protected” unit?
Yes, but depending on positioning etc it might not be viable, plus you have to get enough on the overrun - presuming of course you kill the individual in question in the first place
I am not aware of anything in the rules that would prevent it as a legal charge. There is no need to pivot first, any suitable path can do as far as it is the shortest possible way to reach the charged unit at its correct facing.
