Alright, I am running into a bit of a wall with salamanders. Recently, I been feeling like I just can’t kill anything with units that are not Ancients on Rhinos. I had some success in the past, but after playing a few games and running into a few walls It really feels like I am missing something. I Used to run games without any chaff and just got stuck or outright killed 90% of the time, while also using two dragons to help my front line. Now, I am just floudering.
Biggest problem I am facing right now is Varangur. it feels like they can do anything I can do but 20% better. in fact I feel like I would be better just playing those guys with my current models.
Inspiring Talisman [20]
-Clan Lord on Fire Drake (Hero (Titan)) 1 [325]
Brew of Sharpness [35]
now, I know this list kinda stinks after a few games with it today. The Clan lord gets stuck all the time, the ancients on foot dont hit nearly as hard as they could, and the primes may as well be tissue paper. I know I gotta cut down on stuff but I really want to make the dragon work.
also probably took way too many relics. I like the relics on all versions of the ancients and it worked in the past on the clan lord, but currently it’s just… not too good lol
Having played against a few of your list variations (as well as your opponent), I’d say:
–two units of ancients seems too much. They have limited offensive output. They’re solid unit strength, defense, and inspiring, but I think you’re wasting points going more than one.
–scorchwings in hordes are nasty. Enough nerve to stick around, but the speed and range combo put out a lot of hurt. As regiments they’re too squishy.
–I know you love the CLOFD titan… but its a lot of points wrapped up into a single unit. I think most dragon-types are points traps. They’re scary but they keep your overall unit strength down.
–It’s a lot of points in magic items. I’d consider dropping some of those to bring in another unit. Increasing drops and unit strength would help in scenario play.
The varangur are tough. They get in your face fast and start smashing things. I’ve had success against them by focus firing and forcing suboptimal charges before things are ready. The scorchwings help win the battle at standoff range.
But–remember that there’s a lot of variability in terrain, scenario, dice, etc. Your list has generally been solid. I wouldn’t read too much into a rough outing or two.
all good points, especially as we fought about a week ago. I was thinking of using a bane chanting hero to boost the offense of the ancients up, as well as bringing in some two-handed sword primes. I think the pheonix, while neat, is not the force multiplier I need sometimes
I would probably change out the CLOFD for something else, but I have no clue what currently.
Hey, i play salamanders to, with some decent results.
Generally most units are good but are expensive if you compare with other armies.
great nerve on hordes, great defense and crushing, but expensive.
So try and lose the magic items ( i play with only one item), your units don’t need them. if you drop them all, you can easily get one or more units on the field.
go for hordes of primes with the effigy of fire, they kill and take a punch ( I like them with 2 handed weapons but then they need protection, for which I use lekiodons to protect them form multiple charges ) some use the horde of fire elementals for this purpose.
go for hordes with scorchwings. Cartwright explained this very well.
the scorchwing hero is cheap scoring unit, inspiring and mobile. great for the late game.
use lekiodons 2 or 3 times as chaff, instead of the ghekkotah, they kill the enemy chaff at range and still provide charge protection for the other units.
the greater fire elemental are awesome. 18 nerve crush 3 and vicious makes them nasty.
normal fire elementals aren’t hat great, ( i like hordes of primes, but they have a massive base size)
try and get at least 14 drops.
if you need a wizard for surge, don’t give it fireball. keep it cheap
if you use a battle captain on rhino, don’t give it spells. ( if you have five points give it a mace or sword)
they excell in one thing and you only have 6 turns to use it.
More drops is more control in the deployment and more options on the playing field.
Hope this helps.
I’ll +1 too many Ancient regs, too many items, too few Greater Fire Elementals. I like the Scorchwing regs myself, but it might be worth bumping one up to a horde to pose a credible flanking threat. The army as it is doesn’t have a lot of pressure, either shooting or charging, but also isn’t particularly anvil-y either. More thoughts from me:
Have you considered the formation? It’s one of the good ones, and you’ve got the Primes for it.
I recently faced 2x Ghekko Hunter troops and they were a real pain, both shooting and jamming me thanks to Sp 7. No Nv to speak of but a potentially better chaff use if you’ve got Ghekko floating around in your collection.
I’d invest in turning one of the Ancient regs into a Prime or Ceremonial Guard horde, for the Nv sponge as well as lots of attaks. The hero from the formation will also help them navigate terrain too.
The Rhino Captain could swap sideways into a Skylord, who really are quite good at playing 3.5E, plus don’t need an iTalisman
From what I can tell, the Ancient Phoenix upgrade is typically considered a downgrade, tho I agree that the double auras are awesome. I think it’s the loss of nimble that hurts so bad.
A Greater Fire is an awesome beat stick now, shockingly reliable compared to how mediocre they used to be, and cheap! While I love elite fireball (10) in the late game, I do agree that swapping the heal mage’s fire over to surge is a nice way to save points.
Alright, all good points. I like the idea of double ancients , but I can tell that they just lack the hitting power unless buffed or supported. When you mention a horde of primes I personally had pretty bad experiences with them. They still die really quickly, even with Defense 5. I don’t know if it’s because I didnt screen them properly, but I had no luck with them.
would just swapping them to greatswords would be good?
also, the scorchwings are not just there for attacking. they are supposed to be (rather expensive) chaff, which may not be working well for me points wise. Still, they had their good uses in the last game blocking charges that would stop my rhinosaurs dead (mostly. There were still a few things that snuck by)
I will post two different lists to try and put what I am learning to use lol. slowly getting over that I shouldn’t take the dragon, but he was a fairly good beatstick when used alongside rhinos
I wrote some stuff about thick chaffing with the Scorchies then deleted it, but basically yea, that’s a thing too, especially if you’re prepared to throw them away to get the Rhino hammers into combat.
I don’t hate your list above, it’s just got loads of points in items and slow Ancients. I’ve been tinkering on the side here, and have ended up working in the formation and 2x Hunter troops at the cost of the Ghekkos and one Ancient reg. Most Sallies that you see these days are very shooty but this one falls more on the punchy side, with a side of vicious shooting (a mere 56 + 10 fireball )
Ghekkotah Skylord on Scorchwing (Hero (Large Cavalry)) 1 [120]
1st one,
has a good battle line, x2 leikodons, and infantry with ghekos helping to unlock. Leikodons would protect the horde, herald would provide buffs, the mage priest would provide healing, and the Sky captain can support the rhinosaurs while the clan lord can support the main line. I have one more rhinosaur cav to support either flank.
Battle Captain on Rhinosaur (Hero (Large Cavalry)) 1 [160]
Inspiring Talisman [20]
Have a lot more relics in this list, mostly because I ran out of points on things I would take. Ancients are the anchor of the center, but now have support by troops of two handed primes. Clan lord would hang out with either the flanking rhinosaurs or the center, with the captain on rhino taking up the other flank. Got bane chant to make ancients hit harder, and have support from shooting with duel leikodons.
I think I like the second list better, or at least the symmetry and potential in it more than the first. Plus I want to see Ancients do work too. Once you start melting all the items down you can easily fit your Prime regiments back in. I’m 50/50 on the CS2 option, I think De 4+ can survive ok in this meta, and I can see how De 5+ doesn’t feel like much of an advantage compared to getting more done in combat, should you be allowed to swing.
I really like Raptor Lords as fixer heroes to sit down flyers, block charges, keep your dudes from hindering themselves when charging, etc. None of those jobs require an item, or if you do take something, Blade of Slashing or Axe of Giant Killing are probably the most relevant, as they make it more likely that scary flyers sit down. I do realize you fight a lot of cav tho, so the Scythe makes some sense … but when I comes down to it, this dude’s item is less important than most.
I like that list a Lot! at least until I saw the lack of the relic on clan lord. Still, you do have good points for it! I was just hoping to finally have a character to use the scythe of the harvester or axe of giant slaying, so if I can find the points tor that I would. I have to accept that these heroes probably wont kill things by themselves…
may try this list next time at any rate!
now… is there anything I can do to make a CLOFD viable in this meta? or am I SOL? mostly because I am really excited to paint another dragon lol
Battle Captain on Rhinosaur (Hero (Large Cavalry)) 1 [160]
Inspiring Talisman [20]
Here is a slightly modified list of your army list, keeping the things I really wanted to keep. lost a lot of relics besides the one s I really like to keep. I think I will try this list next, though I am still sad about the loss of my favorite model lol.
Happy I could help! I do think Axe is the better call over Scythe, as it helps the Raptor Lord do 1/3 of his job better (i.e. sit down big square flyers). It may excel in your games against Varangrr but in a take all comers list (and a meta that Ogres exist in), Axe will do more more often. Honestly I’ve come to the conclusion that Pipes or Slashing are the best TAC item on mounted heroes, as they work against everybody all the time, but more attaks is definitely more cooler.
Also re: Shroud, you can get Heal (3) on both Mages, for a total of Heal (6), for cheaper. Plus this Heal (6) can’t be completely shut down by punching or casting another spell, and can be split between two units if desired. You could in fact keep Shroud on one of the Mages too if you down graded Scythe to Pipes and dumped the asymmetrical Aegis on one of the Ancients
I feel like the best reason to include a cool dragon is because you want to use your cool model You’ve got plenty of experience running the one, are you asking about running two? Double dragons is neat IMO, I would recommend running them both naked to keep your overhead down. Something like this:
Salamanders [2300]
Rhinosaur Cavalry (Large Cavalry) Horde (6) [265]
– Sir Jesse’s Boots of Striding [15]
Rhinosaur Cavalry (Large Cavalry) Horde (6) [250]
Ancients* (Heavy Infantry) Regiment (20) [185]
Ancients* (Heavy Infantry) Regiment (20) [185]
Salamander Primes (Heavy Infantry) Regiment (20) [135]
– Two-handed Weapons [0]
Salamander Primes (Heavy Infantry) Regiment (20) [135]
– Two-handed Weapons [0]
Scorchwings* (Large Cavalry) Regiment (3) [120]
Scorchwings* (Large Cavalry) Regiment (3) [120]
Lekelidon (Monster) 1 [85]
Lekelidon (Monster) 1 [85]
Clan Lord on Fire Drake (Hero (Titan)) 1 [290]
Clan Lord on Fire Drake (Hero (Titan)) 1 [290]
Clan Lord (Hero (Cavalry)) 1 [155]
– Effigy of Fire [5]
– Raptor Mount [35]
– Axe of the Giant Slayer [15]
A surprising amount of shooting! And still a lot of units and scoring despite the two big boys.
I like that list! I was just more worried that even running one isn’t a good idea, as they get stuck. Still, may run this because it’s fun. I liked brew of sharpness on a clan lord, but it can be… much.
also, in response to the previous post I am only keeping the healing on one so the other can cast bane chant every turn he can. I may put periscope so he can use fireball, but I like the idea of spreading buffs and healing around in turn. But, I do see your point and may experiment with it!
What do the Mage-Priests do in turns 1-2+ when nothing is within 12" to fireball and nobody is in combat? Healing helps them both have a purpose in life (against early chip shooting or poor focused fire anyway).
So since I am building lists for it anyways, what do salamanders do that armies like Northern Alliance, Varagaurd or riftforged orcs do not? The biggest difference I see is the heavy monstrous cav and the heros, but I could be missing something.
I ask for those in particular because I have a 3d printer and a dream to make a dragon born army
Varangrr would work in a heartbeat if the goal is to have Dragonborn infantry and (monstrous) cav with a couple titanic friends, some with wings. Think I’ve spotted the sculpts you’re using, Artisan Guild right? As far as I can tell, the main reason to go Northern Alliance over Varangrr is because you want to use Ice Elementals, Hrimm and/or a variety of models.
Riftforged are aggressively infantry focused and lack non-winged monstrous cav, dunno if that fits your hobby needs for the army? I forget if the AG release has winged infantry and/or mounts. If you’ve got winged mounts you could probably go heavy Hellstrikers? Certainly fewer models to print and paint!
In 2E, Sallies were a generalist army with above average CS but mediocre Me, decent Def but not much speed, and lots of mid-range shooting. This meant that Sallies always felt overcosted but often underperformed. I frankly was here for it, as I love units that can do two things, but my experience was pretty similar to those few who were running the faction. (EDIT: Found the release, no wings :P)
In 3E, it feels like Sallies have been given more speed and more shooting, which IMO leans harder into the versatile shooting + counter punch archetype of 2E. The best Salamander lists I’ve seen at events are those that go this route, while the middling ones are often those trying to do a standard battleline of Prime anvils, Tyrant and Rhino hammers, Ember or Ghekko chaff and flying support. Maybe it’s a cost thing, but you’re right in feeling like this battleline build feels like other factions (cough who hit on 3+ cough) do it better.
That is all fair! I actually found a more modular set of Dragonborn infantry that looks almost like Warriors of Chaos, so may try those out. I am using artisan guild for the monstrous infantry for now, so that works. I also plan on printing some kobolds out for lighter infantry just to cover the theme of dragons, but those can probably go into the cheaper chaff infantry of any faction.
My plan for winged calvary would just to print out regular dragons (albiet fitting on a size 50mm base) and calling them the flying Cav. Or find more models that fit on MMF
I think my biggest problem is that I expected to have the battleline kinda army.
)
You’ve got plenty of experience running the one, are you asking about running two? Double dragons is neat IMO, I would recommend running them both naked to keep your overhead down. Something like this: