This thread warrants a complete blog post as reply.
We need something to do during the lockdown, no?
Part 2 to be writen eventually.
8 Likes
Damn, Vince got in before me. I just finished fudging the two lists back together for those that like the feel of the old list. I know that doesn’t actually fix the order of the Brothermark. But I think Vince will manage that very well. However this is my take on an army that isn’t necessarily Brotherhood but has a certain feel to it.
Without Further Ado I present the…
Royaumes des lacs
The Kingdoms of the Lakes
The Land and the King are one
The Kingdoms of the Lakes are a series of feudal lands where the Royal and Noble Lands uphold a pact with the essence of the very land and water itself. When the Rulers of the Lands rule well, the land flourishes and prospers. When the Rulers falter, the earth is barren and the rivers do not flow. Only by devoting themselves to the land and the ancient bargain can the knights who rule it hope to call upon the denizens of the earth and lakes to fight alongside them. When roused the Kingdom awakens in the waters, and the earth, and the beasts awaken to fight against those that would despoil the land.
Alignment = Good
Vial of Sacred Water.
This unit gains the keyword: Sacred Water. In Addition, once per game the unit may remove d3 points of damage.
The Kingdoms of the Lakes is a Homebrew, Fan-made, or Fudge list, and so, like a Theme list, it cannot be taken as allies.
Infantry
Men-at-Arms Retainers, as found on page 39 of Uncharted Empires.
Men-at-Arms Spearmen, as found on page 237 of Core Rulebook with the following changes. Replace Iron Resolve with Headstrong, Replace Veteran Command upgrade with Vial of Sacred Water +10 points.
Order of The Brotherhood on Foot, as found on page 39 of Uncharted Empires with the following changed. May exchange shields for two handed weapons, gaining crushing strength (1) but reducing defense to 4+ at no additional cost.
Villein Penitents, as found on page 36 of Uncharted Empires.
Ranged Infantry
Villein Bowmen, as found on page 36 of Uncharted Empires.
Men-at-Arms Crossbowmen, as found on page 237 of Core Rulebook with the following changes. Remove Iron Resolve. May take Vial of Sacred Water upgrade +10pts
Cavalry
Villein Skirmishers, as found on page 36 of Uncharted Empires.
Order of the Brotherhood, as found on page 39 of Uncharted Empires
Order of the Abyssal Hunt, as found on page 36 of Uncharted Empires with the following changes. Remove Aegis Fragment upgrade and add Vial of Sacred Water upgrade + 10 pts.
Order of Redemption, as found on page 39 of Uncharted Empires.
Large Infantry
Earth Elementals, as found on page 286 of the Core Rulebook.
Water Elementals, as found on page 40 of Uncharted Empires.
Large Cavalry
Order of the Forsaken, as found on page 40 of Uncharted Empires.
Swarms
Woodland Critters, as found on page 286 of the Core Rulebook.
Monsters
Greater Water Elemental, as found on page 40 of Uncharted Empires.
Beast of Nature, as found on page 287 of Core Rulebook.
Pegasus, as found on page 287 of Core Rulebook.
Titans
Greater Earth Elemental, as found on page 287 of Core Rulebook.
War Machines
Villein Siege Artillery, as found on page 37 of Uncharted Empires.
Heroes
Unicorn, as found on page 289 of Core Rulebook
Exemplar Redeemer, as found on page 40 of Uncharted Empires.
Exemplar of the Brotherhood, as found on page 40 of Uncharted Empires.
Devoted, as found on page 41 of Uncharted Empires.
Exemplar Adjutant, as found on page 41 of Uncharted Empires.
Let me know what you think.
3 Likes
@Vince, I think your analysis is pretty much spot on. It certainly fits with the frustration I feel over a lack of character and (ignoring the palace guard) no hammer units.
I see the Brotherhood as a small, specialised force with a proud cavalry tradition now desperately short on resources and forced to partner with a larger ally to survive. In this scenario, the core infantry units quickly become Basilean in nature with the ranks no doubt filled by ex - pats pensioned off from the Basilean army (ie veteran command). Some auxiliary infantry would retain the Brotherhood traditions, the villein bowman and villain penitents.
To boost the penitents I would suggest adding phalanx as with the bowmen. Pointed stakes are a cheap combat bonus for a disciplined but unskilled unit and I can’t see why a unified army would not make the most of it.
I’d like to suggest another infantry unit as chaff - war hounds or hunting hounds. These would presumably be common throughout the Brotherhood, and if you’re short on manpower you use what is to hand. The profile would be similar to gur panthers, fast and cheap.
I see the villein skirmishers as irregular light horsemen (border reivers, cossacks, etc) rather than part of the formal Brotherhood cavalry structure. This would be where the Brotherhood military tradition remains the strongest, and I would like to see the choice of units expanded to reflect this. I would suggest there levels; standard knights (paladin), premium knights (abyssal hunt) and a new category of heavy knights. These would be more like moving weapons platforms with a profile of Me 3+, De5+, no TC but CS(2) and Sp reduced to 6-7. This would fill the hammer role in the army.
Modelling these could be done by large, heavily-armoured horses and knights with polearms, greatswords or hammers. Or if you don’t mind straying into Green Lady territory, armoured bear riders.
I hope this helps; it was fun getting out of my system.
4 Likes
To Lord Vincent , Keeper of the Old Faith, Bearer of Knowledge,
I hope this message finds you in good stead. Thy sagely advice was most welcome. If only there were more knights such as yourself in Pannithor, the Brotherhood would not be sundered today.
If you wish to seal our alliance, I offer the hand of my eldest daughter in marriage. I assure you rumors of her unpleasant visage are greatly exaggerated.
Keep the Brotherhood in your heart and keep fighting the good fight.
Lord Bloodaxe, Splitter of Skulls, Maker of Orphans.
1 Like
To lord Bloodaxe, splitter of Skulls, etc.
Your formal offer of alliance is accepted, let us jointly raise the banner of the Brotherhood over Panithor and keep the traditions of our noble order alive!
That said, the offer of your daughter in marriage I must respectfully decline. I already have a wife and no sane man should want more than one, if only for the exponentially increasing number of mothers-in-law.
Signed,
Lord Vincent, master of the Brotherhood chapter of the archduchy of Topaz
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
@Bloodaxe, @Molybdenum @Muakhah ,
thanks for your kind reactions (and hard work writing up a continue-from-2nd-ed-list Muahkah). It’s reactions like this that keep the hobby alive (for me) during this pandemic when physical games are not possible.
I’ll write up my army list (it’s finished in a first draft) somewhere this week. There’s two ideas that need working out (or discarded) before I can finish it. It’s a sad thing, that playtesting isn’t really possible at this moment.
~Vince
3 Likes
As promised: the full list of changes (and the why) listed on my blog.
A short summary:
Homebrew – disclaimer
The below set of changes is homebrew, neither official nor sanctioned by the KoW rules committee. Please seek your opponent’s approval before using it in your games.
List of changes
Changes to the army list
(this set of changes include the Clash ’20 updates)
- The Brothermark can no longer use the Dictator, Ogre Palace Guard and Phoenix from the Basilean parent list.
- The brothermark can include a unit of hunting dogs. The stats are the same as the Basilean Gur Panthers. Practically, for all intends and purposes, it can include this unit from the parrent list.
- the Basilean high paladin on dragon’s nerve is ammended to 17/19 and the unit gains the “headstrong” ability.
- Men-at-arms swordsmen, spearmen and crossbowmen lose the “veteran command” upgrade, but gain the “Villein” keyword.
- Villein penitents’s point cost amended to 85/140/200
- Exemplar hunter’s attacks increased to 5.
- the Brothermark gains access to the Order of the Forsaken from the Order of the Green lady army list.
- new units: Villein initiates, Chaplain of the Forsaken, Forsaken Exemplar
4 Likes
Thanks @Vince for sharing this and your blog. I think the inclusion of the “Villein” keyword is a masterstroke, giving core troops access to the Exemplar Chaplain’s buffs which effectively turn squishy Ne 13/15 regiments into much tougher Ne -/16 roadblocks. Add the Priest from the Basilean list with Inspiring and Heal(3) and a group of two or three regiments could hold up one wing of your army.
Regarding hammers, I’ve found while playing KoM that a horde of spearmen with the Brew of Strength and bane-chanted works well if you use Indomitable Will to take the first charge. Your changes make this possible for the Brotherhood as well.
Five different flavours of cavalry is the cherry on the cake.
2 Likes
Thanks, that’s the idea! Aside from the cavalry (which you need for killing) the synergy between heroes and infantry would make the army work as a tactical interesting force. Glad you’ve seen this!
I reallyhope so! That’s why I opted not to include any frostfang-esque units, as I want the army to function using only these more-or-less basic human dudes with some heroic inspiration.
The challenge in this army is to balance the number of cheap villein units with the more expensive knights and to keep the amount of characters within reasonable numbers. Since nearly everything unlocks, it is possible to take a lot of them, yet I think that to be a point trap.
I’m also curious if an combined arms force based shooting plus counterpunch (bowmen, war machines and wizards plus fliers and cavalry) will work out as an alternative to the KoM counterpunch armies.
2 Likes
Am I the only one who finds all the human armies run together any way? It’s humans + something else (short humans, angels, glowing radioactive women). It feels like they could almost all be pushed into sub lists for Kingdoms of men. It’s strange how badly they fold together when Elves are distinct enough to feel like different armies despite sharing many units as well.
2 Likes
Brothermark is a stupid name. Premising ‘mark’ is borrowed from the german word, it is the name of a territory at the border of a bigger realm, lead by a minor lord like a count.
This doesn’t sound very cool in my ears.
And I really liked GW Bretons and Brotherhood in 2th edition.
Awesome combination of a medieval army with legendary creatures and iconic units.
Now I have to decide between a medieval army without nearly anything mythical or a mixture of knights and nature, but without human yeomen, soldiers and war machines.
If I want an army which comes the closest to my idea of the former brotherhood, I play Basileans with allied Brothermark. At least I can use my Pegasus knights as Elohi and a griffon is a dragon, phoenix or Elohi character.
But I miss the Knights of Redemption and can’t field water elements.
The Brothermark is the part of the Brotherhood that is now on the edge of Basilea at the “border” with the Abyss.
Name fits the lore and I like the military order vibe the sound creates.
1 Like
Setting aside the ‘I think this is stupid because it doesn’t sound cool imo’ argument, it really sounds like you need to play Order of the Green Lady and Brotherhood interchangably. Sure, you can’t use yeomen archers and pegasus knights at the same time. But you can play both.
Tho honestly why having human archers is such a vitally important element escapes me. They’re gonna suck, like all archers.
1 Like
I was just thinking about that… I mean, how many archer regiments/hordes would you need to take to make it worth it? I mean, enough dice rolls…
Kom archers are dirt cheap after all. Crossbows are also cheap. “There is a certain quality to quantity” I think is the quote.
1 Like
All the stuff in v2 UE were simply wfb armies shoehorned into something KoW.
V3 allowed them to develop background and lists for these - tweaking some, developing others, leaving some fairly untouched.
Unless you have multibased pegs, just go KoM - 3 heroes, 3 generals and 3 wizards
2 Likes
Chaff that unlocks and shoots? My Green lady opponent last tournament allied in human archers specifically for this purpose. A regiment and 2 troops make for 3 units, 4 US, 26 shots per turn at 250 points.
Crossbows suck. Archers rock. Just don’t expect them to actualy do anything but stand in the way. You might be surprised that they can actually do a wound or two.
I mean yeah, dice spikes can happen. My Soul Reavers sometimes lose 4 wounds to a regiment of Archers. I just meant, there are other options for chaff? If pegasus knights are the goal, then why is shitty archers not being available such a breaking point? Is this just nostalgia or stubbornness?
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Well, that’s true. Green lady has two great chaff options. Both pegasi and woodland critters make great chaff (much better than archers, IMHO).
I don’t think it’s order of the green lady that’s the problem. (copying here my post in this thread from months ago).
The green lady list is very viable and remarkable close to the original bretonnian list. I would love to build an army, if only there’s not a thousand other projects that have priority… That said, I don’t get the focus on pegasus knights. A 255 horde (excluding the mandatory upgrade with pathfinder) with only TC, no thank you.
If you want to build a flying circus, take kingdoms of men army as @Sceleris suggested. 9 regiments of archers, 3 captains on pegasi, 3 wizz on pegasi, 3 generals on pegasi = 1.890 points. Not the most fun or effective army, but definately possible.
My take on the Green lady would be an army centered on men-at-arms and water elemental hordes supported by druids, mounted characters, pegasi, unicorns and beasts of nature. It’s not traditional Bretonnian, but KoW is not Warhammer fantasy.
Knights, good as they are, are more a support piece than a hammer unit due to reliance on TC. Not only has the Brotherhood army changed, the game has changed too. Where cavalry were an almost unstoppable force in koW2 they are no longer as effective as they were. This is because the meta has changed. The availability of phalanx combined with how easy it is to strip TC makes cavalry a reliablity. They can work wonders, but can also be very ineffective.
The Brothermark army list, however, stinks. I’ve posted about this before, so I will not repeat myself.
Right, and that’s what the poster earlier wanted. The only thing OotGL doesn’t provide is human yeomen, and this was touted as a big issue? To the point of having no options? When, like, no. Just bring pegasus…
I think that many people do have an emotional attachment to the old Bretonnia of gw which they then transferred to the 2nd Ed Brotherhood because it was such a good (maybe too good) port for them. In fact the addition of key beasts and monsters really improved that.
Brothermark on the other hand is bland, and the appeal of the brotherhood was indeed that blend of ordinary dudes like chump archers, knights, and mystical creatures. Which the Brothermark doesn’t have.
Lore wise the Brothermark is an interesting step forward. Army wise it isn’t.
Saying just play OOGL doesn’t help because it’s not what they want.
Unfortunately there isn’t any official solution to give people back what they had (and people always feel worse if you take something they had away)
Brothermark is moving into the zone of basiliea and the green lady order is in her sphere now.
Kow is a brilliantly balanced game, so with friends play a home brew list for fun and to collect the army you want, and for official games break it down into something else.
1 Like