I miss the old Brotherhood. I wasn’t happy with the split as neither captured my interest like the original list.
What are your thoughts on the original Brotherhood and its 2 offshoots?
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I loved the old Brotherhood. It was a bit of a shame that I never played them very well.
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Depending on who you usually play with, you can usually fudge something by mixing the Order of the Green Lady and the Order of the Brothermark lists. If I get time I’ll try and fudge them back together to get a rough approximation of the 2nd edition lists.
I assume you like the more Arthurian, Lady of the Lake and the Land and King are one style of the second edition list?
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I wasn’t really interested in the brotherhood during 2e. In 3e I started to be interested in the order of the green Lady but not necessarily due to any changes. I’m also a bit biased because my favourite parts of bretonnia are together in ootgl.
Lorewise I like the split.
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Tricky really, as mantic really had to move away from a pastiche Bretonnia list when starting to develop their own theme for the brotherhood.
The OotGL works better, from a background/list basis, than brothermark does in my view (which really is a poor mans Basilean army), so that latter certainly could do with developing further - both in fluff and in game.
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I like the green lady order alot. The brothermark does not interest me. The old brotherhood was almost too obviously a port for old bret armies. I always assumed such armies would not be supported too much going forward so I steered clear of it in 2nd. I may turn some of my old brets into the green lady order some day though.
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I do agree with you. In 2nd edition, Brotherhood has been my main army for more than a year. but in 3rd edition, I switched over to Basilea instead.
I’ve been trying to find a reason to play order of the Brothermark (here and here) but I’ve not found a single reason not to play Basilea instead of Brothermark. Everything I want from an army, I can do with Basilea and with more options instead of the more limited Brothermark army roster.
I’ve been looking at the Order of the Green lady too, but having to start another army (the forces of nature stuff) keeps me from doing just that. I might be able to do something with a green lady list with kingdoms of men allies, but it just isn’t the same as what the old brotherhood did to me.
My original brotherhood had nothing to do with brettonia, I just wanted a flexible army based around a mostly-mouted core, and steer away from the angel-basilea that was then “in the meta”. The various knights combined with reconnoiterers just had that alpha strike playstyle I liked. I also felt some pride in making the army (one of the weakest then) work quite well! Looking at the state of the game now, the army as I built it then just wouldn’t work in 3rd (and be horrible vulnerable to Phalanx), so it would need some serious update to be viable.
I’ve tried it a few times, but I keep failing to find a niche where the Brothermark shines, so I return to either Basilea or Kingdoms of men instead.
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Agreed.
I can understand the underlying reasoning for split/changes, it just seems that the brothermark half hasn’t actually got anything worthwhile using over the parent list.
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When I look at the Brothermark List, I see a great list for a Fantasy Chinese force. The inclusion of a Dragon and Phoenix in an otherwise standard human force puts it midway between Basilea and Kingdoms of Men.
This makes an army that can have one or two powerful units or tricks, but cannot rely on them to win.
Judging from the replies here, there isn’t anything wrong with the order of the green lady list. I wouldn’t know, since I haven’t tried it myself, but I imagine the combination of elementals and calvalry supported by cheap infantry to be a valid army.
The Brothermark could use something unique over the parrent list. In my blog I list out the unique units of the army list. They mostly condense into unlocking cheap bowmen, unique (but overpriced) characters and some potential useful upgrades on these and other characters.
I would agree on this, as it’s a great base for a Chinese force. My point on this subject, however, is that Basilea itself is a even better fit. My 2 reasons for this:
a) Both the dragon and the phoenix come from the Basilean list (so they are not unique to Brothermark). The Basilean list has many more options than these two.
b) The infantry of the Brothermark list is distinctively worse than the Basilean counterparts in every aspect.
[quote=“my own blog”]
Villein penitents
Villein penitents are cheap (90/150/215) infantry with sub-par nerve, melee (5+) and defense (3+) scores offset by the crushing strength (1) of the unit. The unit represents non-trained farmers and are therefore irregular .
Review: I really want to like this unit. It’s cheap (150 for a horde), has plenty attacks and CS(1). The fact that it’s irregular doesn’t matter in a brothermark list, as all other units do unlock and unlocks will never be a problem.
It’s just that the unit does not favourably compare to -for instance- a unit of men-at-arms swordsmen with veteran command. Let’s compare the two:
Villein Penitents legion : Cost: 215. Irregular. Takes on average 30 hits from a non CS-units before being routed. Deals on average 6.67 wounds against a def 4+ unit; 3,33 when hindered.
Men-at-arm swordsmen horde: Cost 190. Unlocks. Takes on average 32 hits from a non-cs unit before being routed (not counting iron resolve) . Deals on average 6.25 wounds against a def 4+ unit; 4,2 when hindered.
The men-at-at-arms are cheaper, more resillent (even more when the iron resolve is used) and does unlock. The villeins are marginally more effective in a non-hindered combat, but otherwise worse.
Conclusion: As the role of this unit is to soak up damage, there is no reason ever to take them over men-at-arms.
[/quote]
All in, I’d like the Brotherhood (or Brothermark) to be a valid alternative to the other human factions. I still am of a mind to write up a list of (small) changes to make it valid.
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This thread warrants a complete blog post as reply.
We need something to do during the lockdown, no?
Part 2 to be writen eventually.
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Damn, Vince got in before me. I just finished fudging the two lists back together for those that like the feel of the old list. I know that doesn’t actually fix the order of the Brothermark. But I think Vince will manage that very well. However this is my take on an army that isn’t necessarily Brotherhood but has a certain feel to it.
Without Further Ado I present the…
Royaumes des lacs
The Kingdoms of the Lakes
The Land and the King are one
The Kingdoms of the Lakes are a series of feudal lands where the Royal and Noble Lands uphold a pact with the essence of the very land and water itself. When the Rulers of the Lands rule well, the land flourishes and prospers. When the Rulers falter, the earth is barren and the rivers do not flow. Only by devoting themselves to the land and the ancient bargain can the knights who rule it hope to call upon the denizens of the earth and lakes to fight alongside them. When roused the Kingdom awakens in the waters, and the earth, and the beasts awaken to fight against those that would despoil the land.
Alignment = Good
Vial of Sacred Water.
This unit gains the keyword: Sacred Water. In Addition, once per game the unit may remove d3 points of damage.
The Kingdoms of the Lakes is a Homebrew, Fan-made, or Fudge list, and so, like a Theme list, it cannot be taken as allies.
Infantry
Men-at-Arms Retainers, as found on page 39 of Uncharted Empires.
Men-at-Arms Spearmen, as found on page 237 of Core Rulebook with the following changes. Replace Iron Resolve with Headstrong, Replace Veteran Command upgrade with Vial of Sacred Water +10 points.
Order of The Brotherhood on Foot, as found on page 39 of Uncharted Empires with the following changed. May exchange shields for two handed weapons, gaining crushing strength (1) but reducing defense to 4+ at no additional cost.
Villein Penitents, as found on page 36 of Uncharted Empires.
Ranged Infantry
Villein Bowmen, as found on page 36 of Uncharted Empires.
Men-at-Arms Crossbowmen, as found on page 237 of Core Rulebook with the following changes. Remove Iron Resolve. May take Vial of Sacred Water upgrade +10pts
Cavalry
Villein Skirmishers, as found on page 36 of Uncharted Empires.
Order of the Brotherhood, as found on page 39 of Uncharted Empires
Order of the Abyssal Hunt, as found on page 36 of Uncharted Empires with the following changes. Remove Aegis Fragment upgrade and add Vial of Sacred Water upgrade + 10 pts.
Order of Redemption, as found on page 39 of Uncharted Empires.
Large Infantry
Earth Elementals, as found on page 286 of the Core Rulebook.
Water Elementals, as found on page 40 of Uncharted Empires.
Large Cavalry
Order of the Forsaken, as found on page 40 of Uncharted Empires.
Swarms
Woodland Critters, as found on page 286 of the Core Rulebook.
Monsters
Greater Water Elemental, as found on page 40 of Uncharted Empires.
Beast of Nature, as found on page 287 of Core Rulebook.
Pegasus, as found on page 287 of Core Rulebook.
Titans
Greater Earth Elemental, as found on page 287 of Core Rulebook.
War Machines
Villein Siege Artillery, as found on page 37 of Uncharted Empires.
Heroes
Unicorn, as found on page 289 of Core Rulebook
Exemplar Redeemer, as found on page 40 of Uncharted Empires.
Exemplar of the Brotherhood, as found on page 40 of Uncharted Empires.
Devoted, as found on page 41 of Uncharted Empires.
Exemplar Adjutant, as found on page 41 of Uncharted Empires.
Let me know what you think.
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@Vince, I think your analysis is pretty much spot on. It certainly fits with the frustration I feel over a lack of character and (ignoring the palace guard) no hammer units.
I see the Brotherhood as a small, specialised force with a proud cavalry tradition now desperately short on resources and forced to partner with a larger ally to survive. In this scenario, the core infantry units quickly become Basilean in nature with the ranks no doubt filled by ex - pats pensioned off from the Basilean army (ie veteran command). Some auxiliary infantry would retain the Brotherhood traditions, the villein bowman and villain penitents.
To boost the penitents I would suggest adding phalanx as with the bowmen. Pointed stakes are a cheap combat bonus for a disciplined but unskilled unit and I can’t see why a unified army would not make the most of it.
I’d like to suggest another infantry unit as chaff - war hounds or hunting hounds. These would presumably be common throughout the Brotherhood, and if you’re short on manpower you use what is to hand. The profile would be similar to gur panthers, fast and cheap.
I see the villein skirmishers as irregular light horsemen (border reivers, cossacks, etc) rather than part of the formal Brotherhood cavalry structure. This would be where the Brotherhood military tradition remains the strongest, and I would like to see the choice of units expanded to reflect this. I would suggest there levels; standard knights (paladin), premium knights (abyssal hunt) and a new category of heavy knights. These would be more like moving weapons platforms with a profile of Me 3+, De5+, no TC but CS(2) and Sp reduced to 6-7. This would fill the hammer role in the army.
Modelling these could be done by large, heavily-armoured horses and knights with polearms, greatswords or hammers. Or if you don’t mind straying into Green Lady territory, armoured bear riders.
I hope this helps; it was fun getting out of my system.
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To Lord Vincent , Keeper of the Old Faith, Bearer of Knowledge,
I hope this message finds you in good stead. Thy sagely advice was most welcome. If only there were more knights such as yourself in Pannithor, the Brotherhood would not be sundered today.
If you wish to seal our alliance, I offer the hand of my eldest daughter in marriage. I assure you rumors of her unpleasant visage are greatly exaggerated.
Keep the Brotherhood in your heart and keep fighting the good fight.
Lord Bloodaxe, Splitter of Skulls, Maker of Orphans.
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To lord Bloodaxe, splitter of Skulls, etc.
Your formal offer of alliance is accepted, let us jointly raise the banner of the Brotherhood over Panithor and keep the traditions of our noble order alive!
That said, the offer of your daughter in marriage I must respectfully decline. I already have a wife and no sane man should want more than one, if only for the exponentially increasing number of mothers-in-law.
Signed,
Lord Vincent, master of the Brotherhood chapter of the archduchy of Topaz
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
@Bloodaxe, @Molybdenum @Muakhah ,
thanks for your kind reactions (and hard work writing up a continue-from-2nd-ed-list Muahkah). It’s reactions like this that keep the hobby alive (for me) during this pandemic when physical games are not possible.
I’ll write up my army list (it’s finished in a first draft) somewhere this week. There’s two ideas that need working out (or discarded) before I can finish it. It’s a sad thing, that playtesting isn’t really possible at this moment.
~Vince
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As promised: the full list of changes (and the why) listed on my blog.
A short summary:
Homebrew – disclaimer
The below set of changes is homebrew, neither official nor sanctioned by the KoW rules committee. Please seek your opponent’s approval before using it in your games.
List of changes
Changes to the army list
(this set of changes include the Clash ’20 updates)
- The Brothermark can no longer use the Dictator, Ogre Palace Guard and Phoenix from the Basilean parent list.
- The brothermark can include a unit of hunting dogs. The stats are the same as the Basilean Gur Panthers. Practically, for all intends and purposes, it can include this unit from the parrent list.
- the Basilean high paladin on dragon’s nerve is ammended to 17/19 and the unit gains the “headstrong” ability.
- Men-at-arms swordsmen, spearmen and crossbowmen lose the “veteran command” upgrade, but gain the “Villein” keyword.
- Villein penitents’s point cost amended to 85/140/200
- Exemplar hunter’s attacks increased to 5.
- the Brothermark gains access to the Order of the Forsaken from the Order of the Green lady army list.
- new units: Villein initiates, Chaplain of the Forsaken, Forsaken Exemplar
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Thanks @Vince for sharing this and your blog. I think the inclusion of the “Villein” keyword is a masterstroke, giving core troops access to the Exemplar Chaplain’s buffs which effectively turn squishy Ne 13/15 regiments into much tougher Ne -/16 roadblocks. Add the Priest from the Basilean list with Inspiring and Heal(3) and a group of two or three regiments could hold up one wing of your army.
Regarding hammers, I’ve found while playing KoM that a horde of spearmen with the Brew of Strength and bane-chanted works well if you use Indomitable Will to take the first charge. Your changes make this possible for the Brotherhood as well.
Five different flavours of cavalry is the cherry on the cake.
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Thanks, that’s the idea! Aside from the cavalry (which you need for killing) the synergy between heroes and infantry would make the army work as a tactical interesting force. Glad you’ve seen this!
I reallyhope so! That’s why I opted not to include any frostfang-esque units, as I want the army to function using only these more-or-less basic human dudes with some heroic inspiration.
The challenge in this army is to balance the number of cheap villein units with the more expensive knights and to keep the amount of characters within reasonable numbers. Since nearly everything unlocks, it is possible to take a lot of them, yet I think that to be a point trap.
I’m also curious if an combined arms force based shooting plus counterpunch (bowmen, war machines and wizards plus fliers and cavalry) will work out as an alternative to the KoM counterpunch armies.
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Am I the only one who finds all the human armies run together any way? It’s humans + something else (short humans, angels, glowing radioactive women). It feels like they could almost all be pushed into sub lists for Kingdoms of men. It’s strange how badly they fold together when Elves are distinct enough to feel like different armies despite sharing many units as well.
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