Optional pending feedback.
Let Mantic know know either way.
It’s great that Mantic engages the community, the least we can do is engage too.
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The dice are lierally d6 with swords on that one could easily use a simple table for, so they’re a pretty low barrier.
It’s optional, let’s see. I like them in other mantic games but that doesnt mean they have to be in KoW. I agree with @KptKeno that for those of us who are more casual players they may appeal more than to the competetive folk.
I dont think KoW really needs them, I don’t think they are particularly solving a problem, but, meh, let’s suck it and see!
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This is getting off topic and has already been more argument and negativity on the the internet than I like to do.
So this will be my last response on the matter until I have feedback on trying out command dice myself (which will be elsewhere).
I’ll not leave a question unanswered, though.
I’m not saying that my preferences are superior, just what they are.
If you disagree, then carry on hobbying the way you want to.
It’s an extra an unnecessary hurdle.
It makes one more step where a prospective player can stop and reconsider getting into the game.
It’s something that can only be used for one game, so it amounts to putting money down for a game that I’m not sure is worthwhile.
It’s not a significant amount of money, but it is a commitment.
I got into KoW because I could try it with what I have already, plus free rules. Once I tried it I was hooked, but I had to try it first.
This will mean that one needs what you already have plus some special dice that you can’t do anything else with.
Here’s an example:
I have miniatures for DZ, that I got to play Space Station Zero, because I’d rather buy Mantic models.
For which I had to buy dice, generic D12’s, which isn’t the issue.
I even marked out 3" squares on the tiles I use as a game area (for SS0) and am making/getting terrain that will work with 3" cubes.
Yet I still have not even looked for a game of DZ yet.
Whenever it occurs to me I remember that I need to get special dice first and end up wondering if it’s worthwhile getting into DZ.
Do I really have time for another game?
Am I willing to build a community for this?
Didn’t I say I wasn’t going to spend as much on wargaming this month?
Admittedly; part of it is being a bit old fashioned on my part (a.k.a being a bit of a grognard).
I don’t like having to get something for a game that’s unique to that game. Including miniatures.
I want my hobby to be mine and to use what I buy for the hobby how I like.
If I can just use regular dice as a proxy, then I would rather just use regular dice in the first place.
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As an aside:
We’re discussing CoK 2025 already, would you all prefer a new thread “KoW in 2025” or should I just edit the name of this thread?
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Good point.
I’m sorry that you considered this conversation/discussion to be negative. That was not my intention at all. After all, this forum is one of the friendliest ‘places’ of the internet and I’d like to keep it that way. I was just argueing with a fellow player. Your opinion is as good as mine or anyones out here, of course.
Maybe we got lost in translation. I’m no native speaker and German, people notorious for being very direct and accidentally unfriendly. 
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Certainly think that when CoK25 drops (or we start getting solid teasers outside of the FoA stuff) then switch to a new thread
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Not at all!
I was being negative with regard to command dice and I didn’t like that myself.
Nothing to do with your responses.
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Counter Charge - 726 - Clash of Command Dice
This episode is important, because it feels like we’re getting the quasi-official reaction to all the recent negativity on socials.
Kyle presents that COK 25 is a chance to inject something new, with the command dice, before 4th edition lands, and see how it goes down.
Kyle then more or less confirms Alessio Cavatore is working on 4th, which is something I haven’t heard Alessio come out and say in recent interviews (If anything I got the impression he was working on something different entirely, but goes to show… He has good comms discipline!).
Although Kyle emphasised Alessio is a fan of clean play and rationalising rules, I also took away from it that 4th will be quite a radical overhaul and bring newness… So potentially scope to anger everyone on Fanatics and here, no matter their viewpoint… LOL.
Regarding negativity, there has been quite a bit of it of late. I think anyone involved in tabletop gaming - or any fan community - will identify with the comment made in the podcast that it sometimes feels like the only thing fans enjoy more than their hobby is absolutely slating their hobby…
New models? Oh, those are not the ones we wanted, they’re the wrong ones / they’re too expensive / they’re good (But Mantic shouldn’t get any credit, they’re only as good as other companies now)
New rules? Not what we wanted, potentially ruining the game etc.
Kyle seems to be in a camp - where I suspect there’s a silent majority - who are supportive of the game changing, evolving, trying new things while also having as one of its central tenets that it prioritises balance and clean play. The two things don’t have to be mutually exclusive, especially when you can start with a clean slate, in terms of game design, in 4th, and rationalise a lot of rules… Deleting some… Rewriting some… Including new elements to keep the game feeling fresh.
If this is the direction that the game is going, and I think anyone listening to the podcast might get the sense that yes, this is how Mantic are thinking, if Kyle has his finger on the pulse, then there’s continue to be disappointments for some people ahead. But honestly… There’s nothing to stop people playing the game however they want in their basement. Maybe when 4th comes in there’ll be a bunch of people playing the KOW equivalent of “Oldhammer” (“Oldkings?”).
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Good post 
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I know what the people want, and it’s dwarf meta humor
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I feel very optimistic for the upcoming new edition after listening to the counter charge pod.
Time to start a new project 
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As a Dwarf fan I’d be a terrible liar if I said this wasn’t accurate, in my case at least.
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Currently I am more curious about new version of Ambush than 4th
I trust Alessio Cavatore, @mattjgilbert and the RC that it will be good and not breaking the “tradition” but improving on it
Yet Ambush is “new” and up for experimenting
For the future of KoW setting in general a 10mm version with a “War against Winter” (WaW) theme would be great as well as Vanguard 2.0 and/or Deadzone but Dungeons (were Deadzone is 3D and the sky being the limit, make Fantasy go 3rd dimension down under the earth)
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Its difficult to not be negative when you have played the game at what you consider personally as its lean clean heyday - 2nd ed after the Clash update that introduced disordered and nerfed most flyers.
It had its problem builds but it felt like the game was knowable - armies had very few special rules and it felt to me like the learning curve was well within my ability to comprehend.
I haven’t really been able to get to grips with the game competitively since then, so many armies with so many different auras and synergies its really difficult to feel like you have it all scoped out.
I appreciate that the introduction of granular detail, like an expanded spell book and rules based on keywords is the way to grow the game - it can’t stay the way I liked it forever but I think now it favours the hardcore player much more, the casual types like me who dipped their toe in the competitive scene are finding the water too hot, if you get me?
And I don’t think you can play this game in a casual way like Warhammer because the flank and rear mechanics are so unforgiving that you are almost forced to pursue the meta or feel like you are going to lose every time. Warhammer at least had random weirdness that could derail things at any time for a hardcore player like wizards blowing up etc.and you could fairly easily curate a game that would perhaps swing back and forth.
I’m kind of swinging towards Warhammer the Old World (and never thought I would) having switched to KoW in 2016 with the death of Warhammer Fantasy. I was a big cheerleader for KoW for a long time but the way the game has expanded it feels a bit beyond me to master. With Old World I can play silly curated games with people who have the same attitude to me and let the random stuff happen to create a game narrative. I’d never play it ‘competitively’ it has way to many flaws for that to be fun, but it seems more fun than KoW currently is.
If Alessio can produce some of that 2nd ed magic (and lets remember his 1st ed had some major problems with list building and war machines that 2ns ed cleared up (that iteration of the rules committee deserve the credit)) then I will be optimistic. But if it is trying to copy Old World
In the granularity of rules and interactions then I don’t think it will have a place in my games roster. The great thing about KoW used to be that it wasn’t very complicated or Warhammery.
Thats just my two cents based on my entirely subjective experience of the game currently.
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Interesting, as having tried The Old World, for casual gaming at home, our feeling is te opposite.
It is less forgiving and needs more detailed knowledge about the opponents army and the rules to compensate mistakes from list building (taking any non drilled infantry is a big disadvantage)
Also while rare and flank do not matter much, having the right formation at the right time and/or the right hero makes a big difference.
For casual games we still prefer KoW simply because we can take units we like and make “fluffy” (aka armies according to background) armies without a huge disadvantage
But in general I agree, KoW has going off with too many details for different armies, which is why you have a new edition from time to time to clean things up.
Similar rules with different names should be consolidated into one rule again
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There is now a KoW in 2025 thread:
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Old World’s disadvantages come when trying to play competitively, you could curate your games to not include Drilled units whereas it feels harder to houserule/curate KoW because you feel that it should all be balanced anyway. You can decide not to include dragons in Old World as they are crazily OP because you know the game was never intended to be balanced but in KoW it feels more like ‘Git gud scrub’. And back in Warhammer days someone could take the sorceror lord all done up to the nines and lose all his points if he rolled 1-2 on a miscast!
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Yeah, if everyone agrees to heavily modify the game and add restrictions to the army lists it works
But this is usually part of competitive play in form of comps, hence you use those for casual games as it needs experience to create them without making it worse
A game that needs tournament comps to be casually played because otherwise 2 inexperienced players won’t have fun is not something I am looking for
If people cannot play the models/units they like it is not a casual game
And no one prevents house rules for KoW as well and remove units one does not like, so this is not really an argument (TOW is good if you modify it but KoW must work out of the box)
I want to casually play and not write my own game to play
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A more complex system (Old World) has a higher barrier to entry, longer game duration and might be more random… But none of those things are necessarily that off-putting for experienced adult players, if they are are nostalgic for the Old World, want to put the time and money in, and find the complexity and detail a help with immersion.
The same factors mentioned above are the reason I didn’t pick The Old World as a game for our household, where I want quicker games, and to include my younger son fully.
I think we sometimes make it into a very oppositional thing, but the truth is a lot of KOW players could still enjoy a game of TOW, and vice versa. The online discussions had sometimes don’t reflect that, the claims and language are sometimes more extreme, but that’s just how the internet is.
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I’m sorry, but this is a huge load of BS! I only play casual and I love it. It’s easy to learn, hard to master. If you play casual you normally have a few standard opponents/friends, so you don’t need to know all armies.
I played WHFB before and it just wasn’t fun in it’s latest installement. Too many ‘gotcha moves’, too many special rules, too powerful heroes and looooong playtime.
KoW is so much fun to play casual. It’s slick enough to allow for a drink or five, it’s deep enough to engage and it’s fun to actually see the ‘new list’ you did, (didn’t)work out the way you want, getting that flank charge that turns the tide and all those cool, but not totally random moments. I’m not in need of a new edition, but I’m definetly not going to proclaim the end of the world and how I’ll switch to a game that has all those issues I just pointed out in KoW but bigger.
Don’t panic!
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