that’s why I left fantatics years ago it’s much more sensible here.
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those new sculpts look fantastic! I’m glad they’ve added a bit of lore on top of that and the new snake Calvary look really great. I kind of would like to see that more in evil/wicked factions. give them more monstrous units, really set them apart from the good guys on the board. warhammer kind of does this where the human empire gets normal tanks and planes, and chaos gets these corrupted demonic walkers and forged demons instead. I like good contrasts on the tabletop.
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Molochs haven’t gone away. And they have been resin models for probably four years, not metal.
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I’d probably expect to see a few FoA bits end up in the Vault - think at the moment it’s only the imps?
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That makes more sense then!
I simply haven’t checked and don’t recall it being announced. I’m actually happier with this release knowing that.
Any plans for improving Abyssal Horsemen?
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Well, I’ve already made enquiries about ordering a mega army through a dealer here, so I’ve nailed my colours to the mast.
The Nagarri are probably my favourite of the new models, I like the scale and the design. Rules - the buff to regeneration sounds interesting.
The Lord of Lies, nothing wrong with him, I think they played it a bit safe. There’s a bit of a generic look to him, but then again the abyssal ‘devil’ aesthetic just is very classic and familiar looking. Rules - I like the idea of him impacting on opponents’ aura buffs…
From what I’ve read the Berserkers are meant to play like a werewolf equivalent. My slight reservation is that we’ve got dwarf berserkers, ogre berserker braves, half-elf berkserkers… Maybe there’s more… I wish they had more of a lore-based name. I don’t know, call them … Asmodeans, or Samaelites, or something flavoursome.
Regarding Molochs, I still quite like the old models still, even if they’re a bit dinky for their stat line(?).
No view on the Abyssal horsemen, other than to say I probably will just omit them from my army. Thematically although demon knights could potentially fit the army aesthetic, I would rather lean into other models based on what they are right now.
Ultimately I think Mantic probably did the right thing in judging people would rather new units rather than refreshing two that are already available, maybe also more likely to pull in new players to pick this army.
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Kyle is back with the CoK 2025 preview video
2:44 in shows the new abyssal unit statlines
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every faction will have 2 faction specific command dice tactics (some may repeat in different armies)
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I see you, you blatant Deep Rock Galactic reference.
Will be interesting to see what each faction will get for Orders
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Faction orders, yes please! I know these might go down like a bit of a lead baloon with some, but this is exactly the type of thing I was hoping for.
Command dice rules also look ok to me.
Regarding the Abyssal statlines:-
I play EOD mummies a lot, and I like a regenerating unit with a chunk of high nerve… But a mummy regiment has a nerve of -/18 so you know they are going to stick around long enough to actually regenerate. A nerve of 15 on the Nagarri makes me slightly nervous for them They’re also not that fighty, at crushing strength 1, and 12 attacks, Me 4+, so they’re firmly in the support camp.
Berserkers look great to me, they’re going to be a lot of fun. I’ll be sorely tempted not to make a horde out of what I get in my mega army box.
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I’m not sure yhat the models translate to the stats for me.
Beserkers don’t look particularly fast and nagarri look like they should hit hard.
IMO, though.
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I’m pretty excited about the Command dice and faction orders. In other Mantic games they do a great job in fleshing out a faction without breaking the game. On the other hand I already know I’ll hate the ‘Rock and Stone!’ order. What’s the point in throwing anything else than zombies into dwarfs if the can add CS anytime? I hope Undead get decent orders and not just Wild Charge d3 on something obscure.
I guess it’s pretty good that they are optional. I really want to like them, but I fear they might be a bit overdone. Playing actual games is the only way to tell, I guess.
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It’s best to give it a try before judging, I suppose.
I’m not excited for this though.
Each thing to keep track of generally makes me like any game less.
I like KoW because is a game that doesn’t rely on more and more rules for depth and is easy to learn and hard to master as a result.
It’s a game that I can play after months of not having time for wargames with little issue.
A game where I know what’s going on because my opponent’s army can be explained in terms I am already familiar with, perhaps with a twist that’s easy to explain.
Leaving very little room “gotcha moments”.
This looks like a step away from that.
The “additional tactical options” some people ask for sounds an awful lot like additional opportunities to gotcha an opponent.
Hopefully my concerns are not justified, but why does KoW keep getting more complicated?
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The game’s pretty bare bones and very chess like. I understand your concerns but a little added depth SHOULD THEY NOT OVER DO IT LIKE A CERTAIN WORKSHOP OF GAMES. it should be fine. just 1 or 2 special orders per army should add plenty of depth and more importantly flavor for each faction, without taking away from it. i made a post on this a few months ago about adding army depth and flavor to make each army feel a bit more unique.
That being said i absolutely get where you’re coming from. I’ve seen games like warhammer and battletech just get ruined by absolute nonsense rules. it’s what killed warmachine and hordes as well. So please mantic take note not to over bloat your rules system and be VERY careful with this step. codex creep can totally wipe out a game system in less than an edition. I’ve seen it happen where an lgs sold all their stock of warmachines 3rd edition because no-one wanted to play it anymore.
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Great points! It seems like you’re advocating for a balance between adding depth and keeping the game’s core mechanics simple.
Your suggestions align with the desire for a game that is both strategic and enjoyable, without sacrificing its core simplicity. It’s a delicate balance that game developers often strive to achieve.
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I disagree. What’s “bare bones” to you is “streamlined” and “not a pain to play” to me.
Not to mention that chess is great. It’s more popular than any wargame, quite possibly all wargames put together.
Adding more rules and things to keep track of “for depth” rarely improves a game. In my experience.
GW games are a great example.
It seems like something cool at first, it’s new shiny to look at and consider, but it adds baggage to playing the game.
Factions have all been given a little extra “flavour” with “a few rules” and those were not particularly impactful.
Like nit upgrades and standard bearer auras.
There are a few good ones, but 28 seems to be too many interesting ideas to come up with (understandably). Instead of developing the idea and coming up with something better for the bland “little extra” rules the next year, we get something new again.
The way to give a faction flavour and make it unique is not little extra bits, but pervasive design.
Stats leaning a certain way, unique army wide rules and a special mechanics that other armies can’t do is what gives one faction a unique play experience to another.
Nightstalkers, halflings and dwarfs are great examples. All done within existing mechanics, like auras and special rules.
Mantic is already doing that, so why do we need this?
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That’s basically what the Command Orders are. They work great in FF and DZ, so maybe they’ll work in KoW.
The existing ‘army wide rules’ are mostly upgrades certain units in an army can get and don’t add much flavour nor are they ‘army wide’. I agree in that it shouldn’t be too complex and be a hassle to bookkeep, but I trust Mantic enough to pull this off. And if not, don’t forget, the new rules are entirely optional.
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Countercharge made an episode about Command Dice with Mantic’s Kyle:
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Except that this adds a layer and step/phase to the game. Not to mention bespoke dice.
By the sound of it also allowing extra movement, which I think will be a big impact on the nature of the game. We’ll see though.
I’ve never played DZ or FF and needing to get special dice first is part of why.
My point is that there is more design space there that could be used instead of this.
Throwing mastiffs make a significant difference to how dwarfs play, for example.
By “army wide special rules” I mean entire armies having a special rule, like in 2nd edition.
Dwarf with headstrong, elves with elite, abyssals with fury, mindthirst, etc.
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I’m going to try Command Dice for KoW and if I don’t like them, I’ll ignore them for future games. They are optional.
I made good experiences with other Mantic games with Command Dice, so I’m mostly optimistic. But:
I’m not a competitive gamer and don’t go to tournaments. I can understand how more ‘professional’ players are more concerned about complexity, playability and balance. I guess we’ll see how it works.
I never understood how that is an argument against games. The dice are easy to ‘read’ and you probably spent hundreds of £/$/€ on miniatures, basing materials and paints, so a couple of special dice won’t ruin you financially. If you just want to try the rules, use regular rules to proxy them.
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