Its it allowed? As long as they end their pivot clear of the unit?
Yeah, you dont actually pivot physically but theoretically, if that makes sense. Only the start position and end position are actual physical states. So as long as the end position is legal, it’s allowed.
Similarly, if I follow the reform vs literal pivot logic, if I only move through difficult terrain while pivoting, is the unit still hindered? For a Nimble unit without Pathfinder, would it prevent it from moving At the Double and pivoting through difficult terrain?
Also, based on what I’m reading here, I’m not sure your answer is correct: Kings of War: Charge Compendium | Tactical Wargames World
The line in question that makes me think you can NOT pivot through a unit (interpenetration):
“As long as the final position of the Charging Unit (and interpenetration along the way) does not interpenetrate a blocking terrain piece or unit, a valid charge can be made. This means even the smallest part of a Target Units facing can be charged, unless a true corner to corner charge.”
you’re mixing a few things together @Gordowyrm I’ll break them down to see if it helps.
The pivot requirement for charging where you have to “end clear” of a unit or impassible terrain is because you cannot finish a pivot inside them as the book says
when a unit is pivoting around its centre, it can pivot through both friends and enemy units, and all types of terrain, including Blocking Terrain and the edge of the table. It must of course still end its pivot (and also its entire move) clear of Blocking Terrain
The line you are quoting is about the final position of the unit so you can freely pivot to get into combat but if you would end up overlapping another unit or terrain then it is invalid.
if I only move through difficult terrain while pivoting, is the unit still hindered? For a Nimble unit without Pathfinder, would it prevent it from moving At the Double and pivoting through difficult terrain?
Pivoting doesn’t mean that you don’t pass through the terrain, so you would still be unable to move at the double, you would still have an additional pivot due to the nimble ability.
I disagree, I believe terrain would not count as long as you both start and end your pivot clear of it, it is in practice a “pick up and replace” move and not an actual turning of the unit IMO.
we’ll have to disagree there, it states the units pivot on their centre, nothing about that says pick up and place to me, indeed it is the only way to turn a unit
I think it was written more clearly in the 2nd ed rulebook, but really, you dont count as being within things you pivot through. It’s easy to break that line of thought with logic. You were at some point in the terrain? So you were also at some point inside a blocking terrain, or inside a friendly unit, if you pivoted “through” those? The answer is of course no, because that is impossible/disallowed. It follows logically that you ignore all things you pivoted “through” and only the start and end positions matter.
if that works for your group run with it, my group play it as I mentioned.
Just to add a point, you cant use a pivot to avoid going through terrain if you can charge without it.
My understanding is along the following.
Can you complete the charge without a pivot?
Yes - make move and apply any penalties for terrain as appropriate.
No - may pivot once (twice if nimble). Pivot(s) must end clear of Blocking Terrain or units (except Flyers).
Pivoting through Difficult Terrain, even if ending clear, counts as moving through it so will have the appropriate effect (so prevent At the Double, make hindered if charging etc unless have suitable counter).
The Align stage is “pick up and place”, rather than a pivot - so you aren’t ‘passing through’ anything - you just get moved from where you were to where you need to be (although no ‘skipping’ over units). [Theoretically, you might be able to avoid an obstacle or bit of difficult terrain in this step, but would take an odd situation to do it]
The ‘shuffle to centre’ is effectively a sideways move, stopped by Blocking Terrain or Units. Any terrain moved through will impact for Hindered etc.
that’s how I view it
Well, if you interpret it this way, it would be consistent to say, that pivots through impassable terrain or enemy units are not possible. As the latter is not the case, I guess pivots through difficult terrain do not make the charging unit hindered (as far as the beginning and end of the pivot are out of the terrain/unit).
Pivoting through things you cannot move through is explicitly set out as possible in the rules.
You are still moving “through” XXXX (be it Blocking Terrain, a unit or Difficult Terrain) when pivoting.
You aren’t, due to the way the rules are explicitly written, impacted by pivoting through Blocking Terrain or units - but you are by going through Difficult Terrain (and obstacles)
Do note the "… and all types of terrain … " written in the pivoting description. It clearly makes the pivoting through “all types of terrain” treated in the same way as pivoting through blocking terrain. Do also note that pivoting =/= moving (or going) through.
I guess there are two separate rules at play here:
A: You can pivot through any terrain and units.
B: Special Rule for difficult Terrain: if you move (or pivot) through difficult Terrain, the unit is hindered.
Where in the rules for difficult terrain do you see your “or pivot”. As I posted above, pivoting is not equivalent to going through (or moving through). The rules do not allow a unit to go through (or move through) a blocking terrain or an enemy units. Fly can help but it still does not mean that you go through the blocking terrain. On the other hand, the unit can still pivot through (around) a blocking terrain or an enemy unit. That’s what makes pivot different. Imagine a unit needing to pivot through a part of a river. Do you think the individual models composing the unit would go through the river (or a dense wood) or they would rather make a maneuver similar to pivoting through a blocking terrain (go around and regroup to keep the same shape before and after the pivot). The second choice looks more natural to me as the unit has an option not to end up in the terrain. Anyway, I base my arguing on the point that pivoting is really different from “going through” and it looks logical to me to follow the rule that tell us how to pivot around/through any terrain piece including a blocking terrain. Once again, there is nothing written about pivoting in the rules for difficult terrain.
I see the pivot as part of the move, I do not give a unit a pivot order and then a move/attack order. It is one order move/attack and the pivot is part of that order.
But there are obviously different approaches to this
I completely agree that Pivot is a part of the Movement order, no question about that.