Regnum Aeternum - Written Battle Reports for KoW 3rd Edition

DarkBlack · March 25, 2024, 4:11pm

Being a fantasy staple is why I got them, as my not necessarily KoW fantasy army.
The main issue is a very long paint que.
I’m also not keen on surge as a mechanic, but I figure I’ll come around playing Undead for a bit though.

The surge shenanigansin this game is a good example of why.

Thanks for the new report! That was rough though!

I think the hydra is a good anvil, with good nerve and regen, and should be thought of a such.
I think that the extra attacks is actually a defensive ability, in that it disincentivises your opponent from doing chip damage or trying to grind it down.
It makes your opponent not want to fight it.

As you saw in this game.

On the list; I like the extra hitting power!

I’m not sure scorchwings have the staying or hitting power to justify a horde. If they’re not going to hit that hard and be fragile then their role is support and distruption. In which case you might as well take them as regiments and use the points elsewhere. Like taking the lycans as a horde instead. The extra nerve would help then get the most out of regen.

Boss_Salvage · March 25, 2024, 6:26pm

Thanks for the report!

But wow does that sting Not going first was obviously not a great choice on the Herd’s part () but the blue beasties were punished pretty hard by the dice too. That opening volley from the Gladestalkers did almost twice what it should have - while you probably would have lost one horde completely to focused fire, you would have been able to abandon the flank with everything else and then play across the cover of the hills. It would have sucked but been a price to pay for deployment woes and not grabbing the initiative. Obviously not what went down when that split fire paid off like gangbusters!

Despite what happened in this game …

I still think the Scorchwing hordes have play for the list, even if I live in a very low shooting meta right now, so their fragility doesn’t come to the fore often.

Lots to like in the rest of the list IMO, glad to see you embracing the Brute life. Two of those hordes certainly do work! Ditto the spear horde. Mine has sharpness stapled to it these days, but when I’m truly strapped for points (so under 2000) I go with chalice of wrath because wavering is the worst (plus it means all my hammers are furious, between Brutes and the Stampede). I’ve only run one winged Beast and she put in so much work. Two might be too much for me (I’m not great at piloting flyers, having spent years ruining their plans) but 205 pts is hard to argue with.

Really the Critters are the loser of the list for me. I actually printed and started painting three regs of them to shake my chaff game up … before realizing how bad Sp 6 is on top of the rest of that package. I don’t consider myself a true alpha Herd player, but being the same speed as most of my hammers just wasn’t going to work for me. And so my trusty Braystrider troops stuck around

EDIT: Oh right, the Hydra exists too I dunno. Frankly it’s probably better now than a year ago? The new scenarios generally want more token holders, and that dude can certainly hold a token! Plus it’s US2 now. Maybe there’s something to yeeting him forward and demanding somebody deal with him? Full on distraction carnifex style.

TastyBagel · March 27, 2024, 11:18pm

Well, I can definitely respect a painting backlog as an excuse @Darkblack! Mine got bad enough I’ve given two small armies away over the last few months. I am hoping to see them across the table from me in a few more months time though!

The Undead’s surge tricks have seemed (to me) to be largely limited to flanking maneuvers if you don’t break a neighboring unit, like in Battle 049 where the Revenant Cavalry kept abusing my stumbling and fumbling Giants. Wraiths with Nimble and Fly look like one of the few “tricksy” units available, but they are just Speed 7 and only Height 2, so it is harder to really do broken things with them. Here, with Speed 10 and Height 5, the Greater Air Elemental is a terror and can easily start instigating fights all on their own before the lines can even clash. They are hard units to fight against, and they still seem as deadly as ever, though I didn’t get to put up much of a fight against them and their tricks. I had very little to hunt or kill the Surge Caster, nor the ability to boop the elementals and ground them.

As for some more thoughts on the Herd…

I’ve tried Scorchwing regiments and they just drain my brain trying to cover all the angles and use them effectively. It’s been a lot of brainpower just to get 7 non-piercing shots in occasionally, so Hordes are the way to go for now for me. I was hoping to get a volley off in Round 1, and then just start charging stuff in Round 2 alongside the Beast and Avatar, as they hit harder than they shoot, but that was not to be this time! They’ll be around for a bit, so hopefully they’ll have some better games soon.

I thought I was slowly figuring out the Hydra, but these are some better insights! I’m still thinking of it as a potential hammer, if I can only jump through some hoops, but “aggressive tar pit” is probably a better way to view it, and any damage it gets in should be treated as a bonus. Charge in and tie up something scary and hopefully I can deal with it a few turns later. Deploying at the line was a good call from me this time, but I think I still need to be a little more aggressive with them generally. All good thoughts here from everyone.

The Critters weren’t as useless as I thought they’d be, but “just dying” is a rather low bar. I wish these were on par with Orclings or Imps instead for some variety, but as-is, I think they are still the worst chaff option we have.

I definitely liked the Tribal Spears and the Guardian Brutes, and looking into hobbying up more of the former. The Spears seem like a good way to control space on the field, and I’ll keep the Brew and the Chalice in mind for possible upgrades. Thanks @Boss_Salvage! The Centaurs caught my eye recently, and I want to try them out at some point. Any insights or advice on Centaurs of either variety?

Boss_Salvage · March 28, 2024, 5:36pm

So! When I started my Herd, I needed some chaff and had some centaur models that were going in one way or another, but had some flexibility on which flavor of horse-person they would be. For maybe the first time, I actually looked up what a centaur does in Kings of War …

While I loved the nimble on the Hunters, that’s where the love ended. Striders just seemed better on all other accounts, from survivability to being able to do something if they aren’t dealt with, which are both important for my chaff needs.

We should pause here and note that Hunters have been buffed since the big green book:

The buff to their shooting wouldn’t have changed my mind, but it wouldn’t have been so one-sided in favor of the De 4+ Striders. Them going up in points doesn’t help their argument, however I suspect it’s based around the performance of the regiment size, which can also unlock, and not the troop, where I was shopping.

Flavor of centaur troop decided, I still wasn’t really sure what to expect from them in game. 6 very good attaks was underwhelming on paper, but the durability seemed good. As it would turn out, 11/13 at De 4+ is really solid. They don’t necessarily kick their way out of a chaff-off with so few attaks, but they take concerted effort to remove.

Having used them a few dozen times now, the real upside is threatening flanks if they aren’t dealt with. Speed + a wide base gives them a large threat, and 12 3+/3+ in the flank is very real. I will often crash them into the front of things to block (Ht 3 paying off against most all line units), but I’m always looking for tasty flanks to punish my opponent for not respecting the Centaur Master Race.

Aside: I literally have only used Strider troops (and centaur heroes), nothing else. In the past, I’ve faced Strider regs, which are often underwhelming and in many lists I think outclassed by faster or hittier options, and I’ve heard tell of double Strider hordes. Honestly their attaks seem low for a cav horde, even if baked in CS and pathfinder is really nice. Low De as well

Edit: I’ll acknowledge that Strider troops have two big things against them: 1) Harpies exist and 2) Panthers exist. Striders are certainly thicker chaff than both of these, and are wildly more dangerous to the enemy’s health, but the Herd is a list flush with fast chaff options.

Edit 2: Also arguably 3) Shambler regs exist Speaking of thick chaff that are juuuuust fast enough to be relevant.

TastyBagel · April 2, 2024, 3:24am

I should have replied sooner, because try as I might, I can’t think of anything succinct to add in here. Even at troop sizes, there is a lot to consider, and the Sriders are an odd arrangement of stats! Thanks for sharing your thoughts @Boss_Salvage. It looks like I have some hobbying work cut out for me as soon as the weather gets a bit better for priming!

TastyBagel · April 13, 2024, 5:25pm

I’ve gotten some games in recently!

Battle 056 was against a surprisingly strong Halfling list. Aura options are no joke, and they look like a really strong combined arms style army.

Battle 057 was against a very spooky and well-themed Nightstalkers army, but a very new player.

The Ambush games were neat (regiments for the win!), but my Varangur raiders were not well suited to it. I brought a fair amount of cavalry units, but our tables were 3 feet wide for 1000 points, so their maneuverability was very limited. With such a small play space, I think every game that day was a tabling, unfortunately. These were part of an escalation league though, so they will be bumping up in points and table sizes next month, and that should allow for more back-and-forth. It will be really neat to see both the Halflings and the Nightstalkers armies grow, and I am really looking forward to playing against them more.

And then I also got in an unexpected but welcome weeknight game against @Cartwright recently, with the granola elves and some unpruned elementals of the Sylvan Kin against some rusty combined arms of the Kingdoms of Men. Battle 058 can be found here. It was a close one!

Triple Ballistae did work in the early game, but war machines are still swingy and the dice were rather uncooperative as the game progressed and the targets became less idea. They are terrain dependent as well, but definitely worth exploring more since they hit on 4’s and are so cheap.
Crossbow horde was nice, but not used well, due to my opponent’s pressure and my inexperience with them. Still, they contributed in both damage and scenario play, and the removal of Pot Shot is a very welcome change!
On the opposing side, an aggressive Wiltfather and multiple Greater Air Elementals are hard to deal with. Go figure! I think we’ve both used the Wiltfather and Tree Herders before, but usually in a more passive role. The yolo Wiltfather was quite hard to deal with, so I was taking notes for some future Herd lists…

My opponent brought a neat list to explore more of the Sylvan Kin, and played a very solid game while doing so. Thanks again for fitting it in!

Cartwright · April 13, 2024, 7:54pm

Thanks for the fun game and great writeup! As always seems to be the case, this one went down to the wire.

The pikes were tough and caused some problems. Similarly, I didn’t have great answers for the generals and mostly intended to ignore them and just eat the occasional flank or rear. I find that to be more effective than changing out my entire gameplan to pivot around to handle them.

Boss_Salvage · April 15, 2024, 5:59pm

Thanks for the full size report! I’ll admit I only skimmed the Ambush level games, I only have so much to personally relate to non-standard games. Hopefully you’ve enjoyed the change of pace? And played some new faces.

As for the big game, happy to see it go so close despite early turns. I do feel like you should have been more and not less aggressive, especially when it came to the Sylvan shooting. Also, I think we can all agree what the play of the match was:

The Lute ASB makes a fun play for Nimue, lands a hit, sticks the damage, and clobbers the legendary spellcaster with the instrument!

I love to see it!

DarkBlack · April 16, 2024, 7:50pm

Thanks, as always, for sharing.

The games of Ambush looked fun, but like they can swing dramaticly.

On the big game
you could have been more aggressive, but your opponent’s agression put you on the back foot.
It was till a close game, afterall.

Your giants did 6 charges against slayer targets and 1 against a rampage target. Brining the total to 10 vs big stuff and 13 vs small stuff.

Getting into fight with a tree herder did give the slayer total a boost though, those fights tend to drag on.

Rampage still looks more likely to come into play, but not by much.

TastyBagel · April 18, 2024, 10:35pm

Yeah, the Ambush games were a neat change of pace, but are too terribly swingy. Not sure how many games I’ll be getting in with the League rules myself, but we should have new opponents and new armies appearing across the table in the coming months more regularly. Strategically they aren’t the most interesting reads, but on the community-building and hobbying fronts, the League is a smashing success so far!

The Gladestalkers are just such a pain to engage against, but hopefully I learned some lessons with the infantry hordes after this game. Under fire, especially non-piercing Bow fire, I should be advancing with multiple units, presenting more targets while trying to threaten the enemy and get some use out of my own units. Sitting back and hiding units just told my opponent what to shoot at that turn and made things easier for him.

Yeah, it’s not every day an ASB routs their points back and then some! That was definitely the highlight of the match for me too. Hex did a lot this game, and has been neat, but I think I need to pair it with something else I follow up with later in the game (Mindfog caster; assassin character; mounted hero or something). That could easily be a role for the flying Generals though, and I think avoiding a charge might be why Nimue accidentally moved while Hexed later in the game.

Lastly, and speaking of, I hate to say it and show my hand, but Cartwright has the right idea on ignoring the flying Generals. They are fun tools, but not particularly dangerous on their own. They had a good showing here, but that was largely due to their targets being uninspired and me getting lucky.

Cartwright · April 19, 2024, 7:26pm

From my vantage point: if you rush forward, I have maybe 1-2 turns of shooting before we’re engaged. If you stay back and wait, I get multiple turns and can do some serious damage. If I have the shooting advantage, I try to delay melee and pick off an extra unit or two, then make a late game push. Otherwise, I generally try to close as quickly as possible and see what can happen. A horde sitting on a token can’t eat 30 ranged attacks a turn for multiple turns and expect to stay around.

TastyBagel · April 23, 2024, 2:53pm

I got in my first game against the Imperial Dwarfs the other day! Having greatly enjoyed Darkblack’s reports, I knew a few things about the army, but it still had some surprises for me. Battle 059 can be found here.

My opponent brought a list packed with Def6 stuff, as well as the Royal Guard formation, plus a bunch of throwing Mastiffs.

I continued exploring Abyssal MSU, with a lot of doubles for testing purposes (double Chroneas, Fiends, Tortured Souls and Harbingers) and a healthy amount of Abyssal Guard and infantry units, though I left most of the Flamebearers at home this time.

Loads of Defense 6 is not really a list type that I have really encountered before, and I wasn’t sure how MSU would fare against it. Overall, I was quite pleased with my list and my play. The Fearless Abyssal Guards generally stuck around unflinchingly, with the Fiends and Harbingers proving to be versatile supporting units. The Chroneas monsters were MVPs for me, landing easy damage with Cloak of Death against the high defense units, and tossing around some decent heals with the Temporal Fissures too. Paired with Regeneration (and some Lifeleech on the Tortured Souls), the monsters kept the other Abyssals pretty healthy.

It was a close game throughout! I don’t think my opponent has joined the forum yet, so we’ll thank him now and tag him later. Cheers!

Boss_Salvage · April 23, 2024, 6:29pm

WOW what a dice game While I’m gently shocked this is your first game against Imperial Dwarfs, hearty congrats on shouldering through all those tough little (and big!) bodies. One rules thing below:

The Stone Priest double-cast is new, but I’m aware of this Shambling trick, although it’s been a while since I’ve encountered it. Touching on some of the rule’s highlights for anyone unfamiliar: since the horde needed to withdraw, it will still take a -1 penalty in the coming melee. (Big Red Book, pg. 27) The optional withdraw rule doesn’t care that the horde is fighting the same unit, just that it made the withdraw move here.

Those elementals were most likely just Disengaging (i.e. backing up under their own movement), which doesn’t incur a Melee penalty and can be done regardless of Withdraw existing. Assuming they didn’t back up over 2.5", in which case they would indeed need to use the extra 1" from Withdraw, but that seems excessive and unlikely when the goal was to get shots in from other targets before surge-charging back in.

TastyBagel · April 23, 2024, 7:02pm

Thank you @Boss_Salvage! I was pleased that I was able to persevere here. It was a heck of a game.

I have played against the Abyssal Dwarves of Cartwright and his boys, and had a one-off smaller game against the Abyssal Dwarfs a few years back, but yeah, I’ve dodged both of the good-aligned dwarfs up until now. With a local community actually growing though, we’ll have many new-to-me armies appearing soon.

And thank you for the clarification! I’ve added that into the report. Them just Disengaging makes way more sense as a course of action in that case.

DarkBlack · April 26, 2024, 3:53pm

Thanks for the write up!
Always good to see a Mantic Dwarf army on the table.
Also thank you for the shout out.

In the rules query, the only instance I know of where a unit can’t overrun into a new combat after routing an induvidual is if that induvidual had The Crystal Pendant of Retribution.
The pendant prevents enemy units from overruning.

I’m afraid that inspiring is not technically an aura, so it’s range isn’t improved by the Sacred Horn.

TastyBagel · April 26, 2024, 9:04pm

Bah! I am long overdue for a full rules reread, but yeah, I am forced to agree. Inspiring is it’s own special rule, and separate from Auras. And the wording for Rallying can still take a hike. I hope they tidy up these rules in the future, but thank you for the correction @Darkblack! Much appreciated.

So, the Sacred Horn wouldn’t have been as powerful as we played it here, but it isn’t terrible for ASBs, as it would get their special rule aura out to match the coverage of their Very Inspiring.

TastyBagel · May 1, 2024, 2:02pm

I got a double-header in against @Cartwright over the weekend, with some Herd hordes against the combined arms play of Northern Alliance!

Battle 060 can be found here. My opponent ran a “classic” Northern Alliance for himself, with regenerating anvils, some shooting, and some objective holders. With Fools Gold as the scenario, he played very well, and was well-suited for pressuring early and spreading out later to seize the objectives.

I tried a “no chaff” list, which didn’t play out the best. The Herd doesn’t have good heals or great grinding options. I was passive, and just got picked apart as the game progressed. It was still a great time and felt like I was learning a lot.

And then Battle 061 can be found here. For the second game, my opponent tried out a list with a similar style but some unusual units for him, running some Ice Elementals. The short-range shooting has torn my lists apart previously, but was less effective this game.

My second list added some speedy Herd chaff back in, and I played much more aggressively, and had much better outcomes! Some of those results were definitely lucky breaks, but I would definitely say I played smarter in the second game. Some Herd takeaways from both games:

Tribal Spear Hordes were a little difficult to use well, due to the horde footprint, but I liked them generally, and they seem like a great basis for building out a list these days. Few things are going to want to charge right in against them, and TC can give them some offensive oomph as well.
Guardian Brutes are fragile, and very vulnerable to chip damage, but look like one of our better hammer options still.
Winged Beasts of Nature are neat (I do like my flying monsters), but actually don’t have great combat stats, with just 7 attacks at CS2. Like so many things in the list, if you can make use of the Pathfinder, they should be better than normal, but in an open field, the Herd units are more expensive and less effective than a lot of similar alternatives.
A Hydra does make a pretty nice aggressive tar pit, as has been suggested on this very forum!
The Wiltfather is powerful, but I don’t think I am nearly aggressive enough with him. In the first game Hrimm came down early and my only deployment goal was to not deploy him opposite the giant. In the second game, we had more of a cat-and-mouse deployment with these two. I did better the second game, but still have a ways to go to understand the Wiltfather and Tree Herders.

I had a great time playing some great games, and I think I am slowly starting to get a better understanding of the Herd! A big thank you to Cartwright for hosting and fitting these in!

Boss_Salvage · May 1, 2024, 5:09pm

Thanks for the double reports! Especially as I’m jonesing to return to my own Herd so can live vicariously. Speaking of, my heart sank at each one of those lucky wavers and annoying windblasts, and I was often armchair generaling over here, urging you to be more aggressive

I was happy you didn’t change up your second list too much from the first, just adding back in that sweet, sweet chaff that was missing in the first list. While those six hordes in the first list are all quality, you do sacrifice quite a bit of control without chaff to guide them in, especially with Sp 6 on 4/6 of them.

Regarding that Beast + Ice Elemental sandwich, your average damage is 14.5 (dunno if you remembered vicious), for a rout test of only 2-3. So a pretty done deal … even if the other Ice Elementals were definitely ready to pounce

Cartwright · May 1, 2024, 7:19pm

Good games!

For the first game, cheap drop dwarf warriors at 115 points were a real benefit to the Northern Alliance, given how spread out the tokens were. I knew I had a drop advantage and, if I could kill a few of your units, would be able to grind you out readily enough. That was a tough match-up for the Herd.

For the second game: your write-up is maybe a little too generous to me. You pretty thoroughly outplayed me in this one, esp in the first turn. From there I was reactive and reminded me of the thumping you gave my Brothermark list a year or so ago. When things break right for the Herd, they break REALLY right and are tough. Well played and a good win.

For units, while I’ve toyed around with cavern dwellers as thick chaff (or more a tarpit), 210 points and no fury makes them a pricey way to do that. I think I lean more towards the snow troll prime as the way to chaff with a 50mm unit and a smaller price point (120) that can still get into flanks and cause damage. I’m still not sure what to make of bolt throwers. For 80pts, they can give an Ice Queen with blizzard a re-roll, which gives me some long-range threat, but I’m not convinced I shouldn’t just have another snow fox regiment out there to chaff or sit on objectives if needed instead.

DarkBlack · May 2, 2024, 5:39pm

Your play style and list in the second game looked like the right way to approach The Herd.