Regnum Aeternum - Written Battle Reports for KoW 3rd Edition

[Vince]

Love the battle reports. Just started reading it, but your first question (Is it worth to pay the premium for 2 regiments over a horde in Kingdoms of Men - or KoM-) is one I’ve also encountered.

Short answer: no.
Long answer: it’s complicated.

First of all, KoM love their hordes. Most are cheap cuz they don’t pay for fancy rules and they still do hit quite well with their 25 attacks. I know it’s not mSU, but an army with 4+ hordes is perfectly viable as Kingdoms of Men hordes are not expensive. (165 for shield wall or 175 for polearms). Especially since you mention unlock problems, hordes might help you out by a lot.

For instance, take an army I played a year ago (pre clash '22) . It’s 16 units for 2,300 points, one more than your 15-unit MSU lists. It features 4 hordes, one of which is a horde of knights. Even with 4 hordes, I still max out my unlocks. I play 4 artillery and 6 characters, needing those 4 hordes and 2 regiments to unlock.

If I wanted MSU, I’d drop the horde of knights for whatever cheap infantry I had laying around (preferably polearms) and spent the remaining points on more units. I find that in Kingdoms of Men, the base unit is a horde.

Our troops simply aren’t as good, with possible exceptions for bowmen and fanatics. If only our polearm troops would return…. I’d gladly field four of them! The reason for this is that we have great cheap chaff in the form of the wizard-on-pegasus for 85 points or the “premium-priced” captain on pegasus for 90. These chaff have comparable nerve (10/12) but fly and are nimble on a 50x50 base.

That said, there is a certain horde tax-. After 3 (maybe 4) hordes, these units become too unwieldy and get in each other’s way. That’s why I think a 5th horde would be wasted, and I doubt about the 4th. So IMHO, the best composition of a Kingdoms of Men army is 4 hordes and as many regiments as you can fit in. Troops of fanatics (fearless!) are a good form of chaff if you are alergic to flying horses for some reason or suffer from unlocks.

[TastyBagel]

@Vince that you very much for the very detailed reply!

Every 3rd Edition game I’ve played I’ve documented in the blog, so I am still playing a bit of catch-up to experience what the “new” edition has to offer. But I think so much of what you wrote out is ringing true for the my experiences with the Kingdoms of Men so far. Touching on just two topics you mentioned:

• Running regiments, I have usually had unlocks to spare. But the regiments haven’t been effective, so this recent game was my first attempt at really focusing on and filling up those unlock slots. But running a few hordes would indeed have made this easier too, since I was running a mix of heroes and monsters.
• MSU is really peculiar in Kings of War. For my own use, I’ve shorthanded this to “regiments max” for unit size, but with Large Infantry around, and unit discounts and such, it’s a really fuzzy term and playstyle. I think a more elite army could make a real go of it, and explore the playstyle, but I don’t think this is something that Kingdoms of Men do well, for so many of the reasons you put forth.

The regimental approach has been fun, but I would agree that the Kingdoms of Men need to use our hordes to hit our potential as an army.

[Nav]

i’ve not played KoM yet, but from my experience with cheap hordes, (Goblin Rabble for example, or even Northern Allliance, ) i’d agree with @Vince 's assessment that hordes can be a great help, and you can’t get cheaper hordes than those in KoM. That said, i’ve even taken a horde of Goblin Spitters to hang around the backline and take pot shots and protect my war machines…

[Nav]

Of course, no one has mentioned the big hairy mammoth that’s in the room. Oh no. Not the actual Mammoth, tempting though the big guy is.
Here’s a hint…, “Go big or go home!”.
Sometimes, the option of Horde, just isn’t big enough, and anywhere a horde can fit, a legion can squeeze through too. Also, if you’re boosting the unit with a magic item or spell, it’s a win win.
Not that KoM have many Legion options, but still, even the ill-disciplined weekend warriors of the Militia Mob be worth considering, especially with the discount price from CoK. It’s now only 155 points for a legion of expendable troops. That’s the sort of bargain buy you might find in the middle aisle of Aldi/lidl. Granted, it sadly doesn’t unlock other units, but still, 30 attacks hitting on 5+ basic and a nerve of 24/27 (plus a unit strength of 4) isn’t worth rejecting without consideration. Even if it blocks up a flank and tarpits an opposition cavalry unit for a few turns, or protects some seige engines or your rear against sneaky flyers, it is a bargain at 155 points.
Also a little mention for the Outlaws upgrade for a formation is cheap and a total steal for the cost. Possibly one of the better formations.

[TastyBagel]

Some great points @Nav!

In terms of the amount of bodies Kingdoms of Men can field, I think Goblins are an apt comparison, and I’ve been meaning to look into some lists. We’ll see what lessons can be learned from goblins…

I did redo some militia earlier in the year, and made sure to bump them up to a legion. They were also some of the reasoning behind me defining MSU for myself as “regiments max” as they are just such a steal for the Nerve. No plans to field them anytime soon, but they’ll definitely hit the table at some point for a test.

My experience with the Outlaw formation has actually been lackluster the few times I’ve tried it, though I do want to give the formation one more try at some point to see if I’ve learned anything. The hero, the Brigand is great. Good stats, Inspiring, and a reliable 1 damage in melee or at range. All for 75 points! But the Outlaw Bowmen have just felt bad. I’m sure there was some user-error involved in the games, but at 80 points each, the Outlaw Bowmen just didn’t deliver for me. Even buffed they still couldn’t do damage, and the troops just weren’t survivable enough for me to be reliable chaff. But it’s been a while since I ran them.

[Nav]

Sorry to hear that @TastyBagel , The comparison with Goblins is surely typified in the Bowmen, with Ranged or Melee at 5+ and a heavy cotton t-shirt armour save of De 3+ ,they are very similar to Goblin Spitters.
Mantic have really throttled any armies ranged attacks, so it can be hard to make them effective. Scout, even more so, giving your opponent an easy charge on turn one if you’re not careful. Thankfully, Bowmen don’t get it. The somewhat odd part about the Bowmen formation is the 2 troops, which immidiately makes them chaff material, and they have the life expectancy of a crooked mob accountant whose beeen overcooking the books to skim a bit off for himself. However, if you were planning to include some annoying archers that 5 point buff for Steady Aim and Volley fire is a steal. Comparing to Goblins, who only have Regiment or Horde on their spitters, and yet a similar price tag. Probably, the key to success with both the Bowmen and Militia Mob, is how the units fit into your army list, not so much as individual units, but more so, how they complement and support other units, and how they are supported in turn.

[Vince]

@Nav

The comparison with Goblins is surely typified in the Bowmen, with Ranged or Melee at 5+ and a heavy cotton t-shirt armour save of De 3+ ,they are very similar to Goblin Spitters.

There’s one big difference! Bowmen unlock!

This makes (IMHO) bowmen viable in troops (chaff that also shoots), regiments (100 points unlock that also shoot) and even hordes (175 points tripple unlock 20/22 nerve block that also shoots) - see a theme here? Bowmen don’t really actually do that much, but they are cheap and do unlock. And atregiment/troop level they might actually do a wound or two at a pivotal point in the game and hordes do a little too many wounds to be ignored. So don’t expect them to do wonders, but they might surprise you.

[Nav]

I was sure that they were irregular, don’t know why, but you are correct Vince, spot on, and that unlock helps a lot

[Vince]

@TastyBagel

The regimental approach has been fun, but I would agree that the Kingdoms of Men need to use our hordes to hit our potential as an army.

First thanks for the compliments!

Then, secondly, I feel that our regiments are usually surpassed in usefulness by hordes + characters. Kingdoms of men heroes are very good for their points, be it the humble captain, army standard, wizard (with or without pegasus) or the very decently priced general on winged beast.

There’s four units that I can see myself field in regiments:
Knights (cheap hard hitting TC 2 cavalry. Just bring enough support to drive the charge home.
bowmen (for all the reasons mentioned above)
pikemen (it takes a lot of work to remove this 13/15 regiment from the table. If I needed a cheap unlocking anvil, this would be the unit.
Fanatics (More hitting power than you’d think for humble humans, wild charge helps out too and fearless is icing on the cake, saves on indomitable will). Just keep them away from shooting as they are very fragile for such an expensive (in KoM terms) unit.

[TastyBagel]

@Vince I would agree with most of those points as well and can vouch for most of your regiment positions.
-Knight Regiments are cheap and great and can project some nice threat, but you need to commit to the fights so the knights don’t get bogged down. Countercharging with them is a slow grind.
-Pikes are pretty great in regiments and hard to remove in melee. Great at taking the hit and letting you respond with something.
-I have liked the Bowmen for regiment a cheap unlock. I just played a game with @Cartwright that is making me consider a horde of them. Weight of fire is a thing as it turns out and 20 shots can get lucky, but your list needs war machines to do the lifting. These just supplement it.
-My Fanatics kept getting shot off. So I cannot vouch for these haha.

And I would add the KoM mounted Hero to your list of KoM’s good characters. I have been digging him as a speedbump, but with the speed and as an individual, he can also reliably ground fliers, disorder things or hunt war engines as needed. I have really liked having one or two around in most of my lists lately.

The game with Cartwright should be written up and posted over the next few days, and should have some good openings for discussing the Brothermark.

[TastyBagel]

The report for Battle 015 is up! I dust off some old Chaos Warriors for my first attempt at a Varangur list, up against @Cartwright’s unique Brothermark, with many Penitent Regiments and specialist heroes.

He’s got a thread on the forum for his army lists here, if you want to help him analyze things. Thanks to my opponent for the great game!

[Cartwright]

Thanks for the great game and great writeup. Frostfangs being height 4, combined with a table that had good lines of sight across the middle, was a rough match-up. It didn’t help that for the first 2-3 turns the dice disparity was pretty egregious. Even with all that, you turned it around and had a chance to draw on the last roll of the game vs the Paladins. Kudos for the fun game!

[TastyBagel]

After nearly two months away, I was able to get in a game recently against @Mitch_novem and Battle 016 can be found here.

I just got the Big Red Book a few days prior, so we were using the older rules still. We spaced and forgot to pick up Loot Counters and treated them as Objective Markers instead. We were a bit rusty, but still had a great time!

I tried out some hordes and some ballistae, and ran into some of the same feast or famine problems as many artillerists do. Thankfully, they are getting a points decrease with the Big Red Book, so maybe we’ll try them again sometime! Thanks to my opponent for a great game. It was good to be rolling some dice again.

[TastyBagel]

I had a wonderful time on Sunday rolling some dice with @Cartwright and his boys with my Battle 017.

With youngsters, the report is a little light on some of the tactical critiques, but we had a very wild and very close game of Push between the Abyssals and Abyssal Dwarfs vs the Brothermark and Undead.

I gave my first attempt at some MSU Abyssals play. Despite some poor luck and big blunders on my part, regeneration is quite the boon and this might be a fun way to play the army. Cheers!

[Cartwright]

Thanks for making it out for a great game! I realize it’s a long drive for you, and wargaming with kids has its challenges . . . We spent a few hours hiking yesterday morning, and they spent the entire time talking through the narrative, strategizing for match-ups, talking smack in the pre-game, etc.

As to the game itself, this one went back and forth. I know there were several times we forgot to move units. Between ensuring the kids are doing everything on their end, it’s tough to keep track of everything we need to do on our end, as well, so that seems to be par for the course as they learn the game.

I had planned to use my cavalry and/or dragon to get into your flamebearers right away because I didn’t have any countershooting. Of course, I completely forgot about that and instead charged Def 3 penitents straight at them, which in retrospect was a terrible idea. Your shooting was very effective in limiting some of my options.

I’m still trying to figure out the best way to use a dragon. When I drop 350 points, I feel like I should get him into the action right away, but that seems to result in having him die in turn 2 or 3. Maybe eventually I’ll get that balance right.

The Immortal Guard with throwing mastiffs did some work, as did the horde of decimators with elite (25 attacks on 4+ with elite and vicious at ranged and melee is nasty). Around turn 4, this for sure looked like a win for you, but then 12 fireballs and 3 units of flamebearers all shooting at a 15/17 soul reaver unit and doing a mere 6 damage is a tough break. If you shot them off (as the odds would say you should), then you hold on to win. As it was, that gave him a chance to charge and eliminate a unit, while my chaplain disordered another one. If you had just merely average dice there, your team runs away with the win here.

You used your gargoyles well (except for forgetting to move one of them). They’re cheap, fast, nimble flying chaff. I couldn’t shoot them off, and I didn’t want to piece trade, so I mostly ignored them and hoped they didn’t do much when they hit.

At any rate, great game, and thanks for your patience! We had a fun time.

[TastyBagel]

It has always been a good time, and it’s less than an hour door-to-door, so I am quite happy to make this trip anytime our free weekends coincide! I am glad everyone had fun. What a roller coaster!

I actually think your flier woes this game stemmed mostly from being sporting and choosing to go first. I was really happy when you decided to do that! If you had made us go first, we just didn’t have the range, and would have lost out on a full round of shooting. As it was though, you moved Top of 1, got shot up with spiky dice at Bottom of 1, and by Top of 2 your expensive flier is already on its last legs with very limited options since the nearby Flamebearers have Steady Aim.

Looking forward to the next battle!

[TastyBagel]

I had some time away from work last week, and managed to get a few games in, so I’ll have a few reports coming soon! First one is up, for Battle 018, Abyssals vs Salamanders in Pillage.

For this game, I was looking to test out the Manifestation of Ba’el and the Well of Souls.

The Manifestation brings a ton of utility to the list. A flier with Regen and Stealthy and Lightning Bolt is pretty great. The Nerve is a little low, so it’s not as durable as a normal flier, but this still seems like a power choice for the Forces of the Abyss.

Similarly, the Well of Souls is really cool pick, able to syphon up wounds onto itself from nearby friendly units and then Lifeleech them away in combat. I didn’t use it particularly well, but it was still a lot of fun to explore. It seems like it has a very high skill ceiling, so I will definitely give it another try!

Thanks to @Mitch_novem for the game! It was fun to test out some new monsters from the Abyss.

[TastyBagel]

The second game is a rematch against the Salamnders in Battle 019. My opponent kept the same list with sturdy units and heals, but I switched a few things around to run a Chroneas.

The Chroneas has potential, especially alongside Molochs, but it wasn’t a great or extensive test for the monster of time. I’ll just have to run it again at some point I suppose!

Thanks again to @Mitch_novem for braving the first snow of the season to play.

[Boss_Salvage]

I’ve really been enjoying your reports of late, dunno if it’s the recent demonic bent things are taking or maybe you tweaked some things in the reportage or maybe I’m just taking the time to enjoy your commentary more than I usually do when I’m reading to find out how lists worked out (which I realize is often what I’m looking for with batreps). I’m thinking about bringing out one of my legacy armies for the next few months and running it as Abyssals, an army I don’t have much experience with and generally am not a huge fan of. There’s definitely stuff to like - lots of regen, some nice combined arms, diversity of profiles and some very unique monsters / titans - but whenever I face them I’m often able to take advantage of that De 4+ and scalpel out the more obvious threats (like Ba’el, a dude I’ve killed a fair number of times but often have to devote a lot to do it).

Anyway, keep up the good work!

EDIT: I meant to add, I really want the Chroneas to be good and am planning to run one, probably with drain life whenever possible. Yours didn’t seem to get up to too many hijinks in the last game, but how are you liking it?

[TastyBagel]

@Boss_Salvage , thank you for the kind words. Yeah, the Abyssals aren’t without their weaknesses, but have been fun so mess around with far, just given the variety of stuff they can field. They can also hit a little harder than my usual humans, which I am liking, as it leads to games and not just trying to mitigate my losses haha.

This was the first outing, and it was not a very insightful test for the Chroneas. Unfortunately I kept forgetting about my own Cloak of Death and it didn’t even see much combat. All that said though, I definitely do see the potential.

I have not tried Drain Life yet. The upgrade seems a bit niche and a bit of a trap to me though. Drain Life could let the Chroneas heal itself, so the upgrade is not without merit. The Chroneas also has the height for good line of sight, but it doesn’t have nimble, so casting the spell will be more difficult. DL is a pretty short range spell too. I think just about anything you are going to be able to hit with a DL typically, you are also going to be able to charge. The Chroneas is a fighty monster, so charging is in is what it wants to be doing, as melee is the only way it’s Temporal Ruptures rule is going to trigger.

Someone on Facebook also suggested running two Chroneases together, in order to remove damage from each other which seems fun. Not sure if that is a good use of 400+ points, but I do like the idea.

If you have some fighty units for it to fight beside, I’d definitely recommend the Chroneas. I am lukewarm on the Drain Life upgrade right now though.

Good luck to you! And thank you for the feedback.