I was able to squeeze a game in recently against @Cartwright, with each of us running a new army.
I ran the Forces of the Abyss for the second time ever, while my opponent ran some nicely printed and painted Brothermark in a very close game of Raze. You can real all about it here in Battle 013.
Great game! Mixing up the turn order was a big mistake and likely would have changed the outcome. Given another turn, you certainly draw and have at least even odds of a victory. Lessons learned for next time!
I agree on the breath attack with the dragon. Also an oops with iron resolve, but those mistakes are to be expected with a new army. Next time!
Indeed! This was a really neat match-up, particularly with each of us having a titanic flier and flying duelist. I learned a lot, had a great time, and look forward to seeing more of the Brothermark soon!
I got in Battle 014 recently, against some Riftforged Orcs in Salt the Earth. The opposing army, general, and scenario were all brand new to me, and were all great!
The Riftforged Orcs seems like a fun army, with a lot of sturdy units and a lot of extra toys to bring over normal orcs. The seem to have a lot of great hobbying opportunities as well!
Destroying objectives in Salt the Earth also seems really interesting. I did not have a real plan for the scenario, and probably won’t for a few more attempts, but it seems very dynamic fun.
Love the battle reports. Just started reading it, but your first question (Is it worth to pay the premium for 2 regiments over a horde in Kingdoms of Men - or KoM-) is one I’ve also encountered.
Short answer: no.
Long answer: it’s complicated.
First of all, KoM love their hordes. Most are cheap cuz they don’t pay for fancy rules and they still do hit quite well with their 25 attacks. I know it’s not mSU, but an army with 4+ hordes is perfectly viable as Kingdoms of Men hordes are not expensive. (165 for shield wall or 175 for polearms). Especially since you mention unlock problems, hordes might help you out by a lot.
For instance, take an army I played a year ago (pre clash '22) . It’s 16 units for 2,300 points, one more than your 15-unit MSU lists. It features 4 hordes, one of which is a horde of knights. Even with 4 hordes, I still max out my unlocks. I play 4 artillery and 6 characters, needing those 4 hordes and 2 regiments to unlock.
If I wanted MSU, I’d drop the horde of knights for whatever cheap infantry I had laying around (preferably polearms) and spent the remaining points on more units. I find that in Kingdoms of Men, the base unit is a horde.
Our troops simply aren’t as good, with possible exceptions for bowmen and fanatics. If only our polearm troops would return…. I’d gladly field four of them! The reason for this is that we have great cheap chaff in the form of the wizard-on-pegasus for 85 points or the “premium-priced” captain on pegasus for 90. These chaff have comparable nerve (10/12) but fly and are nimble on a 50x50 base.
That said, there is a certain horde tax-. After 3 (maybe 4) hordes, these units become too unwieldy and get in each other’s way. That’s why I think a 5th horde would be wasted, and I doubt about the 4th. So IMHO, the best composition of a Kingdoms of Men army is 4 hordes and as many regiments as you can fit in. Troops of fanatics (fearless!) are a good form of chaff if you are alergic to flying horses for some reason or suffer from unlocks.
@Vince that you very much for the very detailed reply!
Every 3rd Edition game I’ve played I’ve documented in the blog, so I am still playing a bit of catch-up to experience what the “new” edition has to offer. But I think so much of what you wrote out is ringing true for the my experiences with the Kingdoms of Men so far. Touching on just two topics you mentioned:
The regimental approach has been fun, but I would agree that the Kingdoms of Men need to use our hordes to hit our potential as an army.
i’ve not played KoM yet, but from my experience with cheap hordes, (Goblin Rabble for example, or even Northern Allliance, ) i’d agree with @Vince 's assessment that hordes can be a great help, and you can’t get cheaper hordes than those in KoM. That said, i’ve even taken a horde of Goblin Spitters to hang around the backline and take pot shots and protect my war machines…
Of course, no one has mentioned the big hairy mammoth that’s in the room. Oh no. Not the actual Mammoth, tempting though the big guy is.
Here’s a hint…, “Go big or go home!”.
Sometimes, the option of Horde, just isn’t big enough, and anywhere a horde can fit, a legion can squeeze through too. Also, if you’re boosting the unit with a magic item or spell, it’s a win win.
Not that KoM have many Legion options, but still, even the ill-disciplined weekend warriors of the Militia Mob be worth considering, especially with the discount price from CoK. It’s now only 155 points for a legion of expendable troops. That’s the sort of bargain buy you might find in the middle aisle of Aldi/lidl. Granted, it sadly doesn’t unlock other units, but still, 30 attacks hitting on 5+ basic and a nerve of 24/27 (plus a unit strength of 4) isn’t worth rejecting without consideration. Even if it blocks up a flank and tarpits an opposition cavalry unit for a few turns, or protects some seige engines or your rear against sneaky flyers, it is a bargain at 155 points.
Also a little mention for the Outlaws upgrade for a formation is cheap and a total steal for the cost. Possibly one of the better formations.
Some great points @Nav!
In terms of the amount of bodies Kingdoms of Men can field, I think Goblins are an apt comparison, and I’ve been meaning to look into some lists. We’ll see what lessons can be learned from goblins…
I did redo some militia earlier in the year, and made sure to bump them up to a legion. They were also some of the reasoning behind me defining MSU for myself as “regiments max” as they are just such a steal for the Nerve. No plans to field them anytime soon, but they’ll definitely hit the table at some point for a test.
My experience with the Outlaw formation has actually been lackluster the few times I’ve tried it, though I do want to give the formation one more try at some point to see if I’ve learned anything. The hero, the Brigand is great. Good stats, Inspiring, and a reliable 1 damage in melee or at range. All for 75 points! But the Outlaw Bowmen have just felt bad. I’m sure there was some user-error involved in the games, but at 80 points each, the Outlaw Bowmen just didn’t deliver for me. Even buffed they still couldn’t do damage, and the troops just weren’t survivable enough for me to be reliable chaff. But it’s been a while since I ran them.
Sorry to hear that @TastyBagel , The comparison with Goblins is surely typified in the Bowmen, with Ranged or Melee at 5+ and a heavy cotton t-shirt armour save of De 3+ ,they are very similar to Goblin Spitters.
Mantic have really throttled any armies ranged attacks, so it can be hard to make them effective. Scout, even more so, giving your opponent an easy charge on turn one if you’re not careful. Thankfully, Bowmen don’t get it. The somewhat odd part about the Bowmen formation is the 2 troops, which immidiately makes them chaff material, and they have the life expectancy of a crooked mob accountant whose beeen overcooking the books to skim a bit off for himself. However, if you were planning to include some annoying archers that 5 point buff for Steady Aim and Volley fire is a steal. Comparing to Goblins, who only have Regiment or Horde on their spitters, and yet a similar price tag. Probably, the key to success with both the Bowmen and Militia Mob, is how the units fit into your army list, not so much as individual units, but more so, how they complement and support other units, and how they are supported in turn.
There’s one big difference! Bowmen unlock!
This makes (IMHO) bowmen viable in troops (chaff that also shoots), regiments (100 points unlock that also shoot) and even hordes (175 points tripple unlock 20/22 nerve block that also shoots) - see a theme here? Bowmen don’t really actually do that much, but they are cheap and do unlock. And atregiment/troop level they might actually do a wound or two at a pivotal point in the game and hordes do a little too many wounds to be ignored. So don’t expect them to do wonders, but they might surprise you.
I was sure that they were irregular, don’t know why, but you are correct Vince, spot on, and that unlock helps a lot
First thanks for the compliments!
Then, secondly, I feel that our regiments are usually surpassed in usefulness by hordes + characters. Kingdoms of men heroes are very good for their points, be it the humble captain, army standard, wizard (with or without pegasus) or the very decently priced general on winged beast.
There’s four units that I can see myself field in regiments:
Knights (cheap hard hitting TC 2 cavalry. Just bring enough support to drive the charge home.
bowmen (for all the reasons mentioned above)
pikemen (it takes a lot of work to remove this 13/15 regiment from the table. If I needed a cheap unlocking anvil, this would be the unit.
Fanatics (More hitting power than you’d think for humble humans, wild charge helps out too and fearless is icing on the cake, saves on indomitable will). Just keep them away from shooting as they are very fragile for such an expensive (in KoM terms) unit.
@Vince I would agree with most of those points as well and can vouch for most of your regiment positions.
-Knight Regiments are cheap and great and can project some nice threat, but you need to commit to the fights so the knights don’t get bogged down. Countercharging with them is a slow grind.
-Pikes are pretty great in regiments and hard to remove in melee. Great at taking the hit and letting you respond with something.
-I have liked the Bowmen for regiment a cheap unlock. I just played a game with @Cartwright that is making me consider a horde of them. Weight of fire is a thing as it turns out and 20 shots can get lucky, but your list needs war machines to do the lifting. These just supplement it.
-My Fanatics kept getting shot off. So I cannot vouch for these haha.
And I would add the KoM mounted Hero to your list of KoM’s good characters. I have been digging him as a speedbump, but with the speed and as an individual, he can also reliably ground fliers, disorder things or hunt war engines as needed. I have really liked having one or two around in most of my lists lately.
The game with Cartwright should be written up and posted over the next few days, and should have some good openings for discussing the Brothermark.
The report for Battle 015 is up! I dust off some old Chaos Warriors for my first attempt at a Varangur list, up against @Cartwright’s unique Brothermark, with many Penitent Regiments and specialist heroes.
He’s got a thread on the forum for his army lists here, if you want to help him analyze things. Thanks to my opponent for the great game!
Thanks for the great game and great writeup. Frostfangs being height 4, combined with a table that had good lines of sight across the middle, was a rough match-up. It didn’t help that for the first 2-3 turns the dice disparity was pretty egregious. Even with all that, you turned it around and had a chance to draw on the last roll of the game vs the Paladins. Kudos for the fun game!
After nearly two months away, I was able to get in a game recently against @Mitch_novem and Battle 016 can be found here.
I just got the Big Red Book a few days prior, so we were using the older rules still. We spaced and forgot to pick up Loot Counters and treated them as Objective Markers instead. We were a bit rusty, but still had a great time!
I tried out some hordes and some ballistae, and ran into some of the same feast or famine problems as many artillerists do. Thankfully, they are getting a points decrease with the Big Red Book, so maybe we’ll try them again sometime! Thanks to my opponent for a great game. It was good to be rolling some dice again.
I had a wonderful time on Sunday rolling some dice with @Cartwright and his boys with my Battle 017.
With youngsters, the report is a little light on some of the tactical critiques, but we had a very wild and very close game of Push between the Abyssals and Abyssal Dwarfs vs the Brothermark and Undead.
I gave my first attempt at some MSU Abyssals play. Despite some poor luck and big blunders on my part, regeneration is quite the boon and this might be a fun way to play the army. Cheers!
Thanks for making it out for a great game! I realize it’s a long drive for you, and wargaming with kids has its challenges . . . We spent a few hours hiking yesterday morning, and they spent the entire time talking through the narrative, strategizing for match-ups, talking smack in the pre-game, etc.
As to the game itself, this one went back and forth. I know there were several times we forgot to move units. Between ensuring the kids are doing everything on their end, it’s tough to keep track of everything we need to do on our end, as well, so that seems to be par for the course as they learn the game.
I had planned to use my cavalry and/or dragon to get into your flamebearers right away because I didn’t have any countershooting. Of course, I completely forgot about that and instead charged Def 3 penitents straight at them, which in retrospect was a terrible idea. Your shooting was very effective in limiting some of my options.
I’m still trying to figure out the best way to use a dragon. When I drop 350 points, I feel like I should get him into the action right away, but that seems to result in having him die in turn 2 or 3. Maybe eventually I’ll get that balance right.
The Immortal Guard with throwing mastiffs did some work, as did the horde of decimators with elite (25 attacks on 4+ with elite and vicious at ranged and melee is nasty). Around turn 4, this for sure looked like a win for you, but then 12 fireballs and 3 units of flamebearers all shooting at a 15/17 soul reaver unit and doing a mere 6 damage is a tough break. If you shot them off (as the odds would say you should), then you hold on to win. As it was, that gave him a chance to charge and eliminate a unit, while my chaplain disordered another one. If you had just merely average dice there, your team runs away with the win here.
You used your gargoyles well (except for forgetting to move one of them). They’re cheap, fast, nimble flying chaff. I couldn’t shoot them off, and I didn’t want to piece trade, so I mostly ignored them and hoped they didn’t do much when they hit.
At any rate, great game, and thanks for your patience! We had a fun time.
It has always been a good time, and it’s less than an hour door-to-door, so I am quite happy to make this trip anytime our free weekends coincide! I am glad everyone had fun. What a roller coaster!
I actually think your flier woes this game stemmed mostly from being sporting and choosing to go first. I was really happy when you decided to do that! If you had made us go first, we just didn’t have the range, and would have lost out on a full round of shooting. As it was though, you moved Top of 1, got shot up with spiky dice at Bottom of 1, and by Top of 2 your expensive flier is already on its last legs with very limited options since the nearby Flamebearers have Steady Aim.
Looking forward to the next battle!
