The team names are hilarious!
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Yeah, the stacking, variable Brutal is a bit much imo. I think it usually tops out at Brutal 6 (d3 Grenadiers and a +d3 from Mama, though I think you could add the Pipes of Terror too), but I feel like this interaction gets looked at in the future, to just take the highest instead of stacking multiple sources of d3s. It’s … wild as-is. That said, Rob is not liking where the Halflings are, as that is one of their few tricks now. Trading Auras for Orders is tougher, and more limited, and lots of the nutty units (Juggers in particular) got hit with other nerfs and points adjustments, so he’s struggling a bit. Some of us are trying to get in more games quick before he figures things out again. 
Aha, yeah, that makes sense with the slide in Game 3. Eight games in three days, plus writing is a lot of my brain.
Kenny is … something else. A fantastic human and exactly what my soul I needed for the event. We all lost our minds in Game 2 when he wanted to surge charge out with the Water Elementals to see what would happen, as all of us said that was a bad idea, but him calling and then manifesting the Insane Courage hold was just ridiculous, even if it fizzled in the end. I lucked out, and random pairings was definitely the way to go here!
4 Likes
Alrighty, up now are all the tournament reports! The List Thoughts, and then the list for quick reference.
The Herd finally make it to a tournament table! I think Longhorns + Brutes are uniquely positioned to really punish and crack regimental-focused play, so was hoping to go up against Ogres and anyone trying to run toys over actual hordes. The tournament ditched our old “veto-and-pick” approach to streamline scoring and break ties, so I couldn’t dodge any funky scenarios, and didn’t quite get the match-ups I was hoping for. Still, we did well!
My opponent had Warrior Troops instead of Boomer Troops like some of the other Ogre players (4 in total), so this was a kind of list I was hoping to fight a few times! We had 4 Ogres players in attendance, so I was hoping this would be a bellwether. Not too much to say. My opponent was a bit cavalier with movement, and his dice didn’t help him.
I was hoping for a near-mirror match, and was not disappointed! My list did not want to fight tricky speed 10 fliers, though, and it doesn’t take much to lose a game against a good player. Two positioning errors let him steam roll me, and I learned a lot. Air Elementals might be something to add, if I want to make my list meaner.
We were up against our clubmate Joe and his regimental Orcs, though they had a nice shooting component to them. His Speed 5 Orcs had the same “engagement” issue my Speed 6 Herd have, but I think he was playing and adapting well as the event went on, using Ax regiments to force fights. But, regiments are what the Herd want to fight, and despite my dice making me work for it, we did very well here to end the day in 5th place overall.
I’ve play Jon a few times now, and he is incredibly patient. (It helps that he usually has speed on his side). He had a neat Abyssals list with just one source of Inspiring, since the army Nerve is pretty high. He second-guessed himself a few times, scrapping aggressive moves for a slow spiral, and with greater speed than I, I struggled to engage. Close game throughout, but a blowout at the end against me.
Game 5 vs Orc Riftforged Hordes & Morax
The last game of the event, against apparently another very calculating player! Who was running Orcs for some reason. Unfortunately, while I had several chances to win this at the end, I done goofed it, and we also goof the bookkeeping, and we get a tie.
It was not ideal conditions, but we still did well overall, and it was great to get the Herd on a tournament table after two years of durdling around with them. We finished in the top half of the field; were the best-finishing Wisconsin player; as well as the best-finishing FoN player too!
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It’s been a bit! I recently had the March meetup for Kings of War Wisconsin, and brought the Varangur.
Battle 023 was Varangur vs Abyssal Dwarfs in Seek and Destroy
I like the Abyssal Dwarfs, and my opponent’s army. The Golems are all very tough and the new(ish) slave-angle is neat. It’s any army that makes me think as it has a surprising number of tools. My opponent just overcommitted to my right. I got a bit lucky to pick up a few units and then start snowballing leads where it mattered more, and was able to keep it for the win.
Battle 024 was Varangur vs Halflings in Loot
It is always a tough game against Rob. I have some mistakes and got outplayed early, but the army had the resilience to endure, and I was able to survive and then manifest the Round 7 I needed to grab the win here.
Unfortunately the Varangyr army lost almost all of its uniqueness. Everything is expensive and the bespoke units for taking Magnilde are just decent, being both a bit difficult to utilize well, and hard to run in multiples. I definitely enjoyed myself, but I think plainer Northern Alliance is probably the way to go in most cases! We’ll see what 4E has in store for the Varangur in the coming years though.
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Nice work with the Varangur!
It is sad to see the Varangur cavalry go down another notch.
The mighty Mounted Sons of Korgaan I played in 2nd edition were already toned down for 3rd.
Them becoming just more knights is disappointing and gives me a sense that the New Varangur will be a long way from the old glories of the Uncharted Empires list.
Speaking of fond memories from ages past; I dig the Warcraft necromancer!
1 Like
II mostly agree with your assessment of the units. Unfortunately, that goes for the cavalry as well.
In general, I get the feeling that anything different but adding a few attacks plus a phalanx or changing the ranged weapons is seen as “too complicated” or “not beginner-friendly enough.”
It feels like no unit or character has any options at all.
And apparently, there’s no one left in Pannithor who’s stronger than average (and therefore has CS1) and capable of riding a horse while wielding a lance.
If you want to ride a normal mount, you can’t be a musclehead.
That’s why I doubt this edition will bring back the old Varangur vibe, and riders will likely get an integrated lifeleech at most, but won’t have any other options or anything like that.
Nor will any of the other units do…
P. S. I’ll try Frostfangs not with Brew of Sharpness but with Brew of Haste. With two additional inches more plus the one for Wildcharge they are faster than all other heavy cavalry units but the elfish ones. Because they don’t have CS and just TC, they won’t do much damage if they were charged.
And due to Strider Frostfangs 4+ is not that bad (if you’re not going to charge the front of Phalanx).
But clearly a decision of preference and personal meta.
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Also nice to see your undead have a game!
They seem to be faring about as well as mine.
Rob still seems to be very capable with Halflings and that strider aura was ridiculous anyway. 
Um… werewolves still have nimble.
There seems to be fewer hammers and/or CS in the game in general. The design intention seems to be that combats keep units stuck for a while, as the norm.
I’ll add that cavalry that struggles with terrain was the main hammer for armies through most of history. Pretty much until gunpowder gave weapons more punch. 
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Cheers, you two.
Yeah, the Mounts Sons are bland, and the Varangur are in a weird spot. I think Frostfang Cavalry could be in a really nice spot though, given Strider. That is a scary unit these days, even without items. If folks aren’t taking Phalanx because there aren’t any good normal cavalry to counter… they could be real terrors. Assuming they get a not-codex (can’t remember if that was confirmed) I’m hoping that they get the Twilight Kin treatment, and they take this bland offering and explode it out into something more interesting. Having Draugr and Magi and Blood-magic were all cool things and I hope they all come back.
Then I did get two Undead games in recently, exploring the Undead while helping Rob and his new Halflings dial in some tactics for Adepticon, happening now with the KoW event coming up this weekend.
Battle 025 was Push
Battle 026 was (modified) Plunder
Rob has taken to running the two Iron Beasts together (with some additional support), which is hard to deal with, and I didn’t really have the tools to deal with multiple instances of Def6 (2x Beasts, 2x Harvesters). In both games, the Undead put up a decent fight, but were ultimately a little outmatched. We still learned plenty though!
-Vampires on Undead Pegasi had middling success. Fliers want to be run in multiples, but these are expensive and not really great hammers. They needed other fighty units helping them out, and I wasn’t able to give them that support here.
-Soul Reaver Cavalry are strong on the charge, but I did not protect them well enough, and they never got to charges and so they did not have a great showing. Oof.
-Werewolves do indeed have Nimble! I’ve been powering through a cold this week and must’ve been spacing out in that section. Fixed and thanks! The Werewolves are speedy, but (still) not hammers themselves. I used them well, and they still did a surprising amount of work, but the dice just weren’t there for a dominant debut performance. Maybe troops might be better?
-Wraiths were not used well in either game, but have some promise, especially against shooting! Taking one unit is not enough to really get good use out of these, but the Wraiths are unfortunately Specialist units and in a very competitive slot which also has Zombie Trolls.
-Skeleton Spears … don’t seem great… Phalanx doesn’t do a lot now, and until Cavalry starts seeing more play, I don’t think these seem worth it. Rob is explicitly not running cavalry right now though, so these games weren’t the best test. They could still see play in certain metas (vs Orc Gore Riders, etc), and we’ll just need to wait and see if mine is one of them.
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That appears to be the intention.
My guess would be significant overlap with NA and don’t assume that any Warriors of Chaos models will have a place in the list.
Conversely; in my (single) 4th edition game with Undead I wished that I have my skeletons spears.
I only had a regiment, though. They’re a cheaper core option and I was already using all my zombies as three hordes.
Said regiment of skeletons were trying to sneak off to score, but got run down by tortured souls.
I’m also not sure phalanx is worth it on a horde, but making regiments a little harder to remove sounds good.
Assuming that the vision of cavalry as premier damage dealers is realised.
Why shouldn’t Phalanx be useful on a horde of Skeletons? If Cavalry (18 attacks, 3+, at least TC2) charges a horde skeletons unhindered, they’ll do around 10 wounds. If the charge is combined with a second unit doing around 5 wounds they could be routed even in one turn.
With Phalanx they probably don’t even charge, because they will cause only ~ 6 wounds, which means they will be stuvk for 2 or 3 turns.
But it all depends on the meta and how many units affected your opponents use.
Against Orcs, Ogres, Nightstalkers or Xirkaali for example it would be not that useful. The additional attacks don’t result in much additional damage if you hit on a 5+ only.
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That sums up my feelings.
So far I’m finding TC-reliant cavalry really hard for me to use well. Plenty of ideas are still swirling around and there is plenty of testing to do still, but if cavalry (and fliers) aren’t showing up, spending for Phalanx becomes hard to justify, generally speaking.
Then, in between the first and second acts of a dumb spring cold, I had the pleasure of playing against @Cartwright and the Basileans, and finally taking the old Abyssals for a proper outing in the new Edition, devoid of Abyssal Guards. The army is still confusing to me, but we got a lot of testing in, and more ideas brewing.
Battle 027 was Seek and Destroy
Battle 028 was Pillage
- Flame Bearer core was high-risk, and challenging to use … but it was fun! I have a bunch of other core options and iterations to test, but I did like this approach.
- Gargoyles are great! I figured they would be. Sticky combats and being harder to rout at range make them quite strong now. Their cost went up, but their speed stayed the same, and these are definitely still worth taking.
- Tortured Souls troops are still fun, and really like the extra pivot; Berserkers feel much more balanced now; Abyssal Horsemen suffer from all the cavalry shortfalls now; and Molochs need a little support, as they are just Def4.
Overall, list building for the Abyssals is still weird, and I have a lot of Core iterations to examine still. I think it might be helpful for me to figure out the fun stuff to run each time, and then “backfill” my core picks and heroes to try and support that. The Abyssal Core isn’t really striking me as effective in any aspect yet, so we’ll try to explore more in the coming months.
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I think there are fewer dedicated hammers per faction but I think there are certainly as many or more in lists. I’m already sick of 3+ Siege Breakers or Longhorns or Guardian Brutes or Molochs in armies. Like how core has led to an increase in spamming whatever your cheapest unlock or highest value trash horde is, I feel like the reduction in hammer variety and the competition for slots for most factions largely means spamming the same hammer reg over and over.* Lame.
Ba’su’su having their best day ever! When I took Mau’ti-bu-su to a tournament, another dude was running Bas and definitely enjoying his 200+ point warlord more than I was 
Seems like a fun brawler of a flying individual, rad to see yours really get around the board.
* Which is why I’m so interested in Undead, who kept their many and varied hammer options, in addition to their trash core to unlock them …
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Two opposite results from roughly the same match up is good to see. Both as an indicator of game balance and for a fun day of gaming.
The flamebearers did better when supporting fights on the flanks than when they were attacked themselves.
Maybe consider them a support unit, rather than your line? I notice that your abyssal list doesn’t really have something to hold ground, but rather aggressive hammers plus supporting units.
Something that can take a punch, but also doesn’t need to attack someone to earn it’s keep could be useful.
3 Likes
Ope, I have been overwhelmed a bit lately and apparently forgot to reply here. For nearly two weeks! Sheesh.
That’s a very nuanced take on hammers, @Boss_Salvage but I think I’d agree. I think the added complexity of building with limited slots is forcing folks into more “samey” builds too, which is a bummer. Slots seem to really be pushing folks into the most efficient / effective things for each slot and stifling variation. I’m falling into similar traps myself. While that is an easy pitfall with my testing approach, where I tended to overcommit to units to try them out, I find I’m also doing that now as well afterwards, as I am evaluating units compared to others in the slot. I’ll be trying to fight that spamming inclination going forward, but the incentives to spam are definitely there.
Ba’su’su indeed had the time of his life in that game! I don’t know if I’ve ever had a flier that mobile before. He is easily my favorite Warlord right now for the Abyssals, though most of them seem actively bad. The Archfiend looks like the only other one I’d really be interested in trying out right now, but he also seems hard to build for, especially as the Abyssals as a whole are still tripping me up.
The Flame Bearers are awkward. With just 18” range, I feel like they need to be quite central, otherwise I think I will likely be wasting multiple turns getting into position… and I feel like I need multiples units for them to actually do any significant or worthwhile damage. But point taken @DarkBlack! I could definitely be building lists and positioning differently with them. I will make a note for when I circle back to them. Again, the Abyssals are still tripping me up! But speaking of, I did get another game in with them recently, trying out some more Core and Specialist slots.
Battle 029 was Abyssals (Succubi) vs Basileans (war machines).
- Succubi were ok as Core, but I think I spread out way too much. These ladies can’t carry a list on their own, and do need help like a Bane Chant to be effective against most things. I think they’d be best used in a layered deployment, as a front line and instigating for something like Molochs. We’ll try a more compact deployment for them next time, with more and better fighting units behind!
- Hellhounds were ok. They are speedy, but rather expensive, and aren’t great at doing anything besides going fast. I think most folks will find Gargoyles able to similarly disruptive things, and cheaper then even troops of Hellhounds are. I think a regiment could be nice alongside Ba’su’su though, as they can keep pace.
- Berserkers seem far more balanced, now that they are slower. They still hit hard and carry items well though! Probably the most intuitive and easiest to use of our Specialist choices.
- Tortured Soul Regiments were fun, and managed to best some regiments, but in reviewing things, really got lucky this game with their combat results. They aren’t hammers. I think I like the pesky troops better, but regiments could maybe see play alongside Lower Abyssal hordes, as flankers for the tar pit.
Across the table, putting everything in one battalion was clever and strong, and the Basilean shooting was very effective here. Blizzard is nuts, and Cannons hitting on 4’s are quite scary! It is also worth noting that Grapeshot doesn’t look to have “Reload”, which we didn’t catch at the time, but really makes this approach with a mix of war machines even more clever, as an array of war machines can be really hard to deal with a cannon or two around. I was looking at Volley Guns as some deterrence, but a few Cannons seem to be able to pull double duty instead.
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This latest game put some of my own findings to the test, which was fun:
- I’ve been impressed by Succubi output when given an item, but less and less impressed by how meaningless ensnare is when combined with low defense. During your game, I was like, why isn’t he using Unholy Shield? And then I realized that De 3+ is the same as De 4+ in the face of artillery fire. Surprised their stealthy didn’t do more but hot dice do exist. (Also my experience with item-less Succubi output hasn’t been too stellar.) I too feel like Nv 17+ is what they’ve got going for them, until Abyss gets a vicious order to help with offense or the shield order is tweaked to add more than +1
- I’m currently painting a Hellhound regiment (to replace my Succubi ) cause I very much want to go fast, in a scenario sense. I’ve used a troop of them in one game, where I was able to break away into the backfield and eventually get a sick rear charge, which was ideal, apart from being hindered so nothing happened. But I mostly want the US2 on demand and 48 attaks in a flank if I’m lucky. Currently stapling fire oil to them to hunt fishmen / other Abyss.
- I think it’s funny we can talk about Berserkers being balanced but both you and I run them with top flight hammer items attached I was overall disappointed with my sharp regiment? But they were aggressively chaffed most games and got traded away poorly, partially because they cost so much. I’m a little curious what a normal unit could do, but I feel like the math is bad on Me 4+ (5+ hindered) and only CS1. Another candidate for a vicious order, please! I do think Molochs and Nagarri are just better.
- Whew, I strongly did not like Tortured Souls regiments in 3E and have no interest in trying them in 4E. Fantastic fearless chaff in troop size, I don’t think there’s much going on at regiment size. I guess the free pivot helps them out this edition? And they have a relatively small base, so can scoot around. I’m going to say this is another regiment that could sing with offensive orders, but time will tell. (That said, I do toss Unholy Shield and Burn The Sinners on my tortured troops quite often, since De 5+ is decent and people do want to shoot them, and Sp 8 fly means fireball is often on the menu.)
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Yeah, with such low Def across the army, and the Order already limited to Upper Circle, I could see the Unholy Shield going to a +n successes and increasing Def more. That would be neat. A Vicious order would be fun to, but we’ll see what the future is in store. Orders are still wacky and really all over the place.
I tried stock Berserkers a few times, and have (troops of) them in my Demo Abyssal lists. You intuition is spot on. Hindered and going to 5’s is rough, and like Werewolves, CS1 just doesn’t make them a big hammer. Stock regiments need a Bane Chant, or other things coming in alongside them to tip the scales in their favor. Stock, they are really only good at munching weaker regiments (Shield Wall, Goblin Rabble) when your opponent is trying to play games with the slots. Stock has uses, but I’m liking just giving them an item and trying to turn them into a real threat.
Ope, and I probably should have just combined these posts, so we will, with an edit… Shifting gears, I got in an Undead game last weekend too.
Battle 030 was shooty Undead vs Forces of Nature (Elementals)
I tried quad Balefires again, supported by Skeleton Archer Regiments, and my lovely ground Wyrms. Basically all the shooting I could take. The idea was to block up a lot of the board with hordes of Zombies, and try to let the shooting do work. It did not work lol. I remembered Indirect ignores cover penalties now, but the Balefires struggled to connect after a hot first round. Hitting on 5’s is still tough, and the match-up was really against me with good Def, a layered approach from my opponent to fighting, and Heal Commands and Heal Spells coming from the Forces of Nature.
-Wyrms were fun to use. I tried to prioritize their shooting attack, but that was foolish. Despite some decent hit rolls, the Breath Attack only managed a few damage all game. Using them as beaters would have been better, I think. They are a pet unit, but so very expensive now, unfortunately.
-Skeleton Archers are just bad. I try to stay away from definitive statements like that, but will make the exception here. I wanted to try them again, but you really need to be against Zombies or something to have a chance at dealing damage. One could, I suppose, really commit and run nothing but Skeleton Archers (like Goblins Spitters in 2E), but we lack the war machine options to really make this viable.
-Speaking of… the Balefires were still underwhelming. I remembered their rules better, but they had cold dice, and a really rough match-up here. I think a list with Balefires could work, but probably needs less expensive heroes, and more and faster fighty units, to fight for position and also try to finish off threats wounded or wavered by the Balefires. Something like Revenant Cavalry or Soul Reaver infantry, maybe?
I like “stretching” and trying out different styles, so it was a tough game, but a lot of fun!
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Very interesting to see! I do like to incorporate some ranged firepower but I sometimes struggle with not having enough - I feel you need to have a critical mass for it to be effective. It’s fun to see you exploring the other end of the range and experimenting with too much firepower.
I think a list with Balefires could work, but probably needs less expensive heroes, and more and faster fighty units, to fight for position and also try to finish off threats wounded or wavered by the Balefires. Something like Revenant Cavalry or Soul Reaver infantry, maybe?
That’s my preferred way to use ranged attacks. I find they don’t get great results by themselves but they can just put your opponent under a bit of time pressure before the front lines meet. If my opponent commits a turn too early because they’re worried about taking more fire, then the ranged units have done their job.
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It’s weird that succubi are core.
In my mind they should be a glass hammer unit that shreds low De. I’m not sure core units should hit harder, but they could be more dangerous and specialist.
4+ shooting with bast, piercing, shattering and range across the table sounds rough. Even it if it has to go further to rout units.
I’m not quite as positive about the new edition as I’d like, so hopefully it’s not as bad as it sounds.
When the terror was De 3+ it would sometimes pop unexpectedly, because spikes in to hit rolls aren’t mitigated. Even with that high nerve.
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Thanks for the report! Tho wow, some real heartbreakers in there, between Nature blowing through most combats in one go, the catapults doing next to nothing (or having their exceptional damage turn vacuumed off the GEE), the revs forgetting their hammer (and you forgetting the wind’s hammer against zombies), and your worms either having their damage forgotten or brainfarting a turn away 
Rules thing: Looks like your zombies on the far right could have wrapped around those Shamblers, might have helped hasten their demise (and protected their flank). I also think the GFE could have turned 90 and still made the flank of your worm? But maybe that’s parallax throwing me off.
I still like RKoUGW myself, they’re my favorite of the three Undead titans. The vamp dragon is certainly the best of a bad category (because it’s not paying for a shooting attak) but I like the 12 attaks and strider and brutal and fearless and tasty modeling potential. Better orders would help the Undead warlords feel like better value in general but we’ll get there some year.
As for Skeleton Archers, yeaaaaaaaa at least they unlock? A warrior reg with the warbow feels better to me honestly Maybe a single archer horde with fire oil? Cashes in on that 4E horde unit strength and can stand still for a sweet 5+ to hit things in the open. As we saw in this game, a reg is doing next to nothing, even with orders and a cool rear charge (spoilers!)
Also, I think not taking at least Tome on the ASB is a misstep. Z Trolls in the flank are real!
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Messing around with your list instead of doing work:
Battalion 1
Revenant King on Undead Giant Wyrm (Hero (Ti)) 1 [290]
Army Standard Bearer [2] (Hero (Inf)) 1 [110]
– Tome of Darkness [20]
– Surge (5)
Necromancer [2] (Hero (Inf)) 1 [155]
– Horse [15]
– Inspiring Talisman [30]
– Bane Chant (2) [20]
– Bloodboil(0) [30]
Revenants (Inf) Horde [255]
– Brew of Strength [40]
Skeleton Archers (Inf) Horde [160]
– Fire-Oil [5]
Zombies (Inf) Horde [110]
Zombies (Inf) Horde [110]
Zombie Trolls (Lrg Inf) Regiment [180]
Zombie Trolls (Lrg Inf) Regiment [180]
Balefire Catapult [2] (War Eng) 1 [85]
Balefire Catapult [2] (War Eng) 1 [85]
Battalion 2
Revenant King on Undead Giant Wyrm (Hero (Ti)) 1 [290]
Skeleton Warriors (Inf) Regiment [95]
– War-Bow of Kaba [5]
Zombies (Inf) Horde [110]
Balefire Catapult [2] (War Eng) 1 [85]
Strong revs instead of hammer revs for trash blending purposes. Bloodboil pony necro feels more interactive to me, and triple cats feels less bad when they do nothing in a game but also don’t make eyes roll quite as much as quad cats
Also warbow skellies here for the dirtiest of jobs 
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