I imagine the as smaller water elementals or water spirits. Not sure which road to take…
Naw, I agree with you. I had earmarked these for nokken some time ago: https://www.manticgames.com/games/dreadball/teams/glambek-ghosts-adalorana-team/
Placoderms become heavy infantry, which certainly suggests Mantic has a model in mind for them. As you say, Eckter looks great, I’d be all over a unit in that style.
Wyrmriders are now SP8, CS1, no TC, 130/220pts. I would be quite disappointed if I ever used them.
As you say MiSiO, Thuul troops are looking pretty tasty, it’s still a lot of attacks that are fairly easy to deliver. And Nokken are VERY weird - I like the change a lot, our skirmishing light infantry category was pretty crowded, so making them skirmishing light elementals is definitely a positive move. I’m just not sure when I’m going to want such a thing? Very interested to hear people’s impressions.
SP9 was pretty bonkers, but taking away TC? Bizarre, especially for cav. Tell me they’ve still got Regen 4+??
Yep, and Pathfinder, so the plan has to be… hide in the woods? With no Ensnare they’re just so easy to pick up in one turn.
Here is a quick comparison how WRs fit their new, regular Cavarly role:
More phalanx so CS got a utility buff.
Paladin Knights are 210, 16 Att, same 15/17 nerve. TC2.
Gore Riders are 190, 16 Att, 13/15 nerve. CS1+TC1.
Revenant Cav are 165, 16 Att, Me4+, -/17. TC2,
Sour Reavers are 250, 20 Att, 15/17 nerve (def 5+), CS1+TC1,
Shadowhounds are 190, 20 Att, 14/16 nerve (Def 4+), TC1,
Abyssal Horsmen are 240, 18Att, 14/16 nerve, CS1+TC1,
Halfbreeds aew 200, 16 Att, 14/16 Nerve (def4+, regen 5+), V. CS1+TC1.
Most are Def 5+. No regen.
I like the “Sour Reavers”, I know it is just a typo, but I think I am refering to them as such from now on.
I think you make an important point here. Our Monstrous cav is now the damBusters, wyrmriders are now our ‘light/medium cav’, nimble on them would be grand though. I think the main thing is it will be a head shift, I will probably first play with all our other new toys, but would like to try them out sometime.
Can someone explain how Enthrall works?
I understand it works like refers windblast, but here are some important questions:
- Can you drag a unit into combat? (I assume no)
- Are they disordered? (I assume no)
- Can you target the same unit multiple times in a turn? (I think someone in this thread implied that that is a no)
Yes. Dambusters are heavy cavalry. WRs ale light one. And yes. Nimble is going to be bonkers!
Back to Enthral:
You still have to remember it is just a part of the combo. We can get a 110 point Surge(12) caster, we get a nice Windblast from Mythican of Eckter. We can use enthral to drag one unit, windblast too push another back and surge some nice Water Elemental into flank.
Dang it, I hate to feel this way about the WR. They did such a great job on so much. Balancing I feel has been really good in general. And its hard to please everone.
I dont necessarily seem my perspective as objective but for me, WR are going the wrong direction . I’m expecting to drop them. I needed to use their Speed and CS/TC to take intiative, and do distance cav charges, but they can’t survive any attack they make. I have some in my nature army too and this breaks my heart. Changes are warranted in some cases and feel it doesnt fit for them. Ok. No stress. Move on. I would be happy to pay more for more though.
Under the considerations, if they feel this way about them, its fine. Actually thankful I didnt get lots of wyrmriders. I’m using the medusae models for mine and they can shift over to another unit type.
Who knows, maybe I can find some way to use them. As they were, they barely fit and now they are simply less.
I;m sure the debate is them competing for slots vs. the Dambursters. At 16/18 and I might play with them with the changes, but at 15/17 they waver too easy. Def 4 makes them inferrior to other cav conflicts. -/17 might have done it for me too at 240 pts. I had a Kraken one shot my WR in cover once. They just can’t hang in there at Def4. Now Spd 8 no TC. Might be ok on combo charges, but they will die on a countercharge.
The Dambursters look fantastic however! Dang, can’t wait for them.
I’m with you, I think Wyrm Riders were a massive misstep from the RC. I know opinion within the RC was divided on the direction to go with them, and I persoanlly think they made the wrong choice and it seems like the vast majority of people agree.
There seems to be a couple of influential voices who are screaming that they’re really good (although weirdly those people don’t choose to use Wyrm Riders themselves ) and this seemed to have drowned out all the other people saying that they never took WR in V2 and now they’re even worse in V3.
Shadowhounds and Abyssal Horsemen have regen 5+.
You’ve missed some of the biggest difference though, Paladin Knights are headstrong and Abyssal Horsemen have fury.
Wyrm Riders biggest issue is that they waiver far too easily. Once they’re waivered their regen becomes irrelevant because even if they regen back half the damage they took, they take the same amount of damage again next turn and die regardless.
If they had headstrong, fury or fearless they would be a really solid choice. Without it, they’re easily the worse unit from the list you posted
This is interesting. I would assume what many assume that Regen 4+ is overrated when it comes to WR cost.
I was curious so I checked the numbers, against a 12 attack, CS1, Me3 regiment over 3 rounds of combat, the Wyrm Riders are exactly as likely to rout as Abyssal Horsemen.
They’re less likely to route than Halfbreeds and Paladin Knights and more likely to route than Soul Reavers, So basically defensively they’re on par with counterpart cavalry units, its just whether they stack up offensively or with special rules.
MY suggestion is to use WEAKNESS a lot.
So their being survivable requires that they fight only in slow grinds? They’ve got a 150mm base, they’re not difficult to combo charge, and at spd8 they really don’t have the ability to control the battlefield well enough to pick that incredibly favourable matchup. If I have to be so careful with them, why wouldn’t I just take something else?
Yeah I totally agree they suck.
A lot of weight seems to be given to their regen 4+ and its held up so say that they’re really survivable because of it. But anyone who’s ever used them knows that’s not true and as the grids show above they’re equally as survivable as over cav except they pay more for the privilege and have other downsides like a wider frontage and no headstrong or fury etc.
Regeneration is overrated on them and they suffer from it 2nd edition in a raw. I will test them but this is not great on paper (and we know paper does not always says truth).
I get the TC reduction on them. It fits the general trend but I do not get the SP reduction really. they were lighter but faster. And it was their main “adventage”.
Interesting. I like your chart info. I want to note the wavering odds are higher with Def 4. I think it shows my concen. They take 7-8 damage which is easy to get vs any cav or monster at near equal points hitting on 3+ and brutal. In my experience, WR wont be attacking back. Might regen some of that damage back and hold on a turn or so, but it becomes a stale mate if it’s a lategame fight over objectives. Happened twice back to back to me.
Thats them on the left side fighting a Kraken doing nothing for 2 turns and getting wavered over and over. And this oppoent quit unit using WRs because he feels the same way. Let down.
I’m sensing that a lot of value is put into the 15/17 nerve is targeted as Elite on foot Regiments, plus 4+ regen. Puts this unit into a finesse role. Cover based objectives vs. not pathfinder armies. Dropping them to speed 8 I think was an effort to find a way to get their points down without going to 5+ regen.
A unit with Ensnare can get away with that mechanic. Which means the unit needs to camp in woods all game in an effort to control a spot. but when it does come out, “it’s curtains.” Everyone I play with is dispappointed in the investment, and I feel they have merit. Its not an emotional complaint, but evidential.
I’m not that concerned with it at this point, I said good bye to them in V2. I dont expect to see top lists playing with them when they could have dambursters.
100% of the people I’ve talked to about adding in WR have told me I’ll be disappointed. At this point I need to for unlocks (and not great ones at that), and I guess I’m hoping to charge off a hill into a combo-charge? Or something? At least with Sp 9 they could get up to some fast antics, less so now.
Extra weird that they’re so mediocre yet Mantic has models for them. If this were GeeDub, we’d say that they were nerfed to sell Dambusters … but I think it’s more likely that Regen 4+ is heavily favored when calculating unit costs, even if low nerve means it won’t often be rolled for.