I was thinking about the Kraken’s impressive charge range with wild charge d3, and how it’s cool but maybe a trap because the rest of the list has trouble keeping up. The wyrmrider nerf could simply be part of the faction identity - we don’t get good fast stuff. If you want to fill that role, you have to pay a weird regen 4+ tax.
This makes me feel better about the situation, but I’ll appreciate if those of you with models aren’t mollified so easily.
Remeber. No bounce back so a Kraken can not be flanked if he charges a line of infantry! They just does not see him! Kraken is nice piece.
WRs - they are +35pts Depth horrors with regen, better speed lower nerve and no ensnare… Now they NEED mythican with bane chant to support.
By my math, from the front of a 75mm base, some portion of it is visible for 225mm. So, if you charge a 200mm infantry horde, anything lined up with it that’s within 12.5mm will have arc of sight to the Kraken.
Good to keep in mind though, the bounceback rules will take some time to adjust away from.
I very rarely post my lists online, as I build army lists differently than most gamers (I’m extremely motivated by model selection and army theme, with a tendency to skew towards less optimal / off-meta units), but I really dug Swordmaster’s post about moving his Elves into 3E and figured I’d toss up similar thoughts here.
My TR as of Sept 25, 2019 when I sealed the last Kraken:
Naiad Hearpiercers Regiment
Naiad Hearpiercers Regiment
Naiad Hearpiercers Regiment
Naiad Hearpiercers Regiment
Gigas Horde*
Gigas Horde*
Kraken
Kraken
Kraken
Naiad Envoy - Aura of Herosim (2), Banner of the Griffin
Depth Horror Eternal - Inspiring Talisman
Depth Horror Eternal - Orcish Skull Pole
Naiad Wyrmrider Centurion - Fire Oil
*King Crabs Formation
2250
I took this list to the Crossroads GT and did way better than expected, with the real stars being the Heartpiercers, who killed just about every flying monster I faced (mega-dragons, mega-slashers, void lurker, etc) and tarpitted like the ensnaring, regening little traps I knew they could be. The Kraken I got woefully stuck in predicament after predicament - in two separate games I got one flanked and reared by wraiths - but were great fun to release into things, and occasionally one of them did some heavy lifting. Gigas were kings as well, rolling like champs with the best stats in the list.
Cue 3E and everything bar the Eternals got nerfed. Even though I wasn’t running particularly broken stuff, it’s what it is. The more relevant bit is Hearpiercers becoming irregular, which means I need an unlock. I had been sitting on a Wyrmrider horde (aka the worst unit in the TR list, if I understand people right), so that’s a mandatory add, and limits what I can do for heroes. Here’s where I’m at as I head into the redux:
Naiad Hearpiercers Regiment
Naiad Hearpiercers Regiment
Naiad Hearpiercers Regiment
Naiad Hearpiercers Regiment
Gigas Horde
Gigas Horde
Naiad Wyrmriders Horde
Kraken
Kraken
Kraken
Naiad Envoy - Bastion (2)
Naiad Envoy
Depth Horror Eternal
2235
That’s two new units (Wyrmriders + Envoy 2) and two rebased (Gigas, but I’ll be adding a few more crabs to each unit as well), which doesn’t seem too onerous. Like Swordmaster, I feel like the 3E version more or less does what the 2E version did, but does it worse. I need to run the math on the Hearpiercer shooting, however their survivability is obviously worse and no pathfinder makes pulling double duty as objective nabbers a little harder. Despite how NWC got even better, I can’t afford one as well as the Nv support my low nerves need; upside is the Eternal, who I already liked, is one of the few straight buffs available to me, so I’ll take it.
Since I still don’t have my book, I don’t know what’s up with the 15 points yet. Almost assuredly an item for the Wyrms, but possibly something for the other Envoy to do.
EDIT: Lulz, math was easy:
2E is better standing still, 3E is better moving. Mind not really blown 
However 2E 'Piercers are undeniably better in melee, and mine definitely grabbed flanks whenever possible. 24 attaks @ 5+ isn’t huge but it’s certainly a lot of dice, vs the 20 of 3E.
EDIT 2: I returned to the math, after realizing that after rounding the results weren’t entirely clear (or pretty enough):
With rounding, 2E’s 12 shots are only significantly better against the weakest of targets while standing still, while 3E’s 10 shots with Steady Aim are significantly better in virtually all cases where moving is involved, including simply turning on the spot (something I did all the time at Crossroads).
I also ran the melee numbers:
Rounding removes almost all the difference between 12 and 10 attaks in a normal frontal charge (i.e. the counter-charge Heartpiercers are most likely to be involved in). 2E were indeed significantly better while flanking, as well as much less likely to be hindered, hence only running the numbers for 3E while hindered. Which basically concluded you shouldn’t charge hindered, barring a lack of targets and a juicy flank of a lower Def unit.
Anyway, numbers and prettier tables.
First, I would argue that Gigas were buffed. Accounting for the formation, elite and vicious are equivalent, they kept the speed, got 5 pts more expensive, went to a larger base, got +1 def on the flanks and rear, and traded 1 CS for Nimble. They will do less damage and take up more space on the board, so as pure strikers you’re right, they’re worse - but their ability to command the board and especially grab objectives is seriously improved. I am very much looking forward to their changes.
As for the updated list, I’d quite like to hear about how the shooting performs. I expect it’s “poorly” without the hindered ensnared charges to protect you. I suspect you’ll want to trade a couple of the Heartpiercer regiments for troops and add some chaff - Tidal Swarm are looking extremely good, if you can find some appropriate minis.
For myself, my most recent list (took best overall at our little GT this weekend!):
Horde of Ensnarers
Regiment of Thuul
Regiment of Depth Horrors
2 Hordes of Gigas with the King Crabs formation
2 Regiments of Tidal Swarm
Kraken
3 Knuckers
Coral Giant
Envoy with Banner of the Griffin and Aura of Heroism
Envoy with Heal (3) and Shroud of the Saint (heal 6)
The Siren
I was pretty happy with it! The Ensnarers hold territory, it’s got a good chaff/countercharge element with a range of strikers, and the Knuckers are of course absolutely incredible at exploiting any opening. Going into 3e, I’ll be starting pretty similar, though I’ve only got models for one horde of 50mm appropriate Gigas. Things I want to play around with:
Congrats! But that’s 2E, right? Curious how it would do in 3E.
Sure on the Gigs, probably an overall neutral, but bigger base, bigger points, less CS kind of spells nerf to me. Nimble is awesome and I’m happy to have it tho. I do have plans for two Tidal swarm regiments, most likely rolling those out when the NE-US goes to 2500 points, which feels imminent to me, maybe with some steps in there (2300-2400).
Funny thing about Depth Horror regs, I originally intended to build two of those, but a) I couldn’t stand working with the CMON crab bois, so made it through two before deciding b) Eternals were a pretty great deal for what I wanted, with more nerve too!
Yeah, 2e, so I still got to use the incredibly broken Siren. I’d mostly used her against undead before, so this was the first time I got to truly lock down ranged units and fliers, it was amazing. The list is mostly vulnerable to shooting and alpha strikes, so I think the 3e changes treat it pretty well, but it remains to be seen how it holds up to big infantry grinders like Palace Guard hordes.
I am probably a little too excited for Nimble, but the idea of Gigas scuttling away from chaff to strike at the juicy targets behind is so delicious, and even just getting to move at the double and still pivot while moving up turn one is going to be huge for their board presence. Combined with being able to deploy Tidal Swarm being able to deploy behind them and scoot up with Scout, my ability to contest the midline is going to go up significantly, while also reducing congestion in my deployment zone.
One thing that’s a little worrying is damage output, as you’ve pointed out. The list already relied more on denying enemy damage than actually dealing it myself, and the Knuckers, Kraken, and Gigas had to do a lot of heavy lifting. With those all being dialed back a bit, I may struggle to concentrate force enough to get vital breaks. I’ll definitely need to include a Bane Chant, and I think a Dambuster Sentinel will be really useful for adding a little extra oomph, especially with that poison frog. I can see a Depth Horror Eternal or Wyrmrider Centurion doing much the same thing.
Let me do a little drawing.
Also keep in mind we have so much Enthral at our disposal… 
Go for Blood of the Old King! Perfect way to spend 15 points on WRs.
Gigas are just different now. They role is no longer to deal damage but to take it but they are a unique main line unit as they are nimble and can reposition in a way it will be very hard for Your opponent to charge them.
Thinking the same! Tho I don’t really know what it does in 3E or what the other items are 
I’m trying to really think about every unit and size, and I’ve decided that Heartpiercer troops are overcosted. They pay (120/8 = ) 15 points per shot, where regiments are (160/10 = ) 16, so ten points gets you one unit strength and FOUR nerve. Especially on a regenerating unit, that’s massive. The shallower base has some potential for scooting water elementals over after shooting, but I’m going to call that extremely niche.
@Boss_Salvage it does what it did but You take 1 damage for every re-roll You make.
Did a small unit breakdown (hero breakdown still wait to be translated into English). I hope You like it.
Trident Realms 3.o
Let’s start from a small summary.
There are 30 units to choose from including 12 different hero choices two of which are Living Legends. We also have two new units straight from Vanguard stables. Dambuster sentinels and riverguard dambusters). There are unit we no longer have access to. Hidden Ones (legendary thuul) and Nk-ushi - legendary centurion are no longer available.
Trident is a finesse army You will succeed only when use combined-arms forces of unoptimized units in an effective way. This does not change in 3.0 and TR is even more synergy focused. I will break it down later in unit review.
Units are grouped by their size and function in a new list. We have infantry, ranged infantry, heavy infantry, engines, large cavalry etc. It makes reading the profiles so much easier to what we had before. Especially when we take into consideration that now unlocks are more complex and based on not only unit size but type.
Poison frogs
This is an update limited only to riverguard units. Cheap, one use only Brutal for 5 points which we can use before rolling to damage. Small but sexy upgrade.
INFANTRY
Not many changes here but some are essential. Naiads did not change at all… Their profile and rules are exactly as they were. Troop and regiment sized units got cheaper but it was to be expected. Thuul got more expensive in a regiment and it was another change we all were aware of. Now we have to pay 160 points for a regiment which is still fine. There is a trend towards making troops more playable and basically ALL troop sized units got cheaper or did not get more expensive. Troop of thuul is still 105 points for example. Naiad troop is now 90 not 100 etc. This might finally encourage players to play less horde-based armies and experiment with MSU/MMU which is what TR was always good at.
Placoderm lost a horde option and are now heavy infantry (25mm bases) and can be fielded as a troop. They are now 10 points cheaper despite phalanx getting better. Great unit to MSU unlocks and to form Your main battle line. League of Infamy offers an amazing Placoderm models too.
There is a new riverguard unit (already spoilered by Mastercrafted). We got more specialization in riverguard infantry. We either get combat oriented treeleapers or a support, ranged riverguard with javelins. New treeleapers has lost Vicious(too bad!) but has gained CS1 and kept their Def 4+ at the same time. No need to lower it to 3+ any more. Biggest change is their fly, nimble speed 7. Their cost is 110 for a troop and 170 for a regiment. Again. Troops are more tempting now than even before.
Ranged riverguard did not change much (although they are irregular now). SP7, Me5+, Re5+. 115 for a troop, 155 for a regiment. They did loose a point of nerve which is painful but they are a ranged, support unit. No vicious too and poison frogs are not the ideal choice for them but still a very nice option to have.
Heartpierces lost all buffs from CoK supplements and a pathfinder. Except Steady Aim. They are now a classic ranged support not a road block. Pure range support. 8/10 shots at 4+ even after moving (harpoons are now like a 18" “breath”). Interesting unit. Sadly irregular (like most ranged units in 3.0) which is intentional. Range is going to be a support piece is many armies.
SWARMS
We had one swarm-type unit. Now we have two. Nokken joined tidal swarms. And nokken is the unit that got the biggest change in 3.0. I will start by saying TS were too slow to be a chaff. They were great profile-wise but were to slow. It was even hard to screen gigas with them. Now, alter loosing few attacks and getting cheaper they can Scout! This solves the whole “chaff” problem.
Nokken on the other hand lost scout, got to a new base size and are shambling now (to support strong surge theme in the army). They are now cheap, ranged (“breath”) unit with ensnare, fearless and 7/14 Att for only 80 and 130 points.
LARGE INFANTRY
Depth Horros did not change at all. Same profile. Only regiments got 10 points cheaper. They also benefit indirectly from all to shooting changes that was their main problem.
Water elementals is a unit that also got a nice buff mostly due to indirect changes to our casters but they got strider instead of pathfinder so there is a direct buff too. The whole surge/enthral/windblast theme got a major buff it Trident and I expect more Water Elementals on a field of battle.
Gigas are no longer Large Infantry. They are now monstrous infantry (50mm bases). Which is good. Mantic giga models were to big for a 40x40 bases! 4 models was a max we could fit on a horde base anyway so a good change there. Gigas both lost one and gained some. They are now less offensive due to lower CS and no elite (is there anyone who was using Gigas outside of King Craks formation?) but are Def 5+ (with Big Shield), Vicious and … Nimble. Yes. Crabs can walk sideways. They have a new role now. More defensive but very flexible on a field (which seems to be the TR thing). They will also benefit from lower CS/TC across the 3.0.
CAVALRY
Wyrmriders is the only unit I do not get in 3.0. Sure they looks now like a light cavalry both defensively and offensively but they lost the most important thing about them from 2.0. Speed. SP8 and no TC1 for 25 points less does not look like a good trade especially IF we consider that they were not the optimal unit before the change. I am sure time will tell if I were wrong about them but it is hard to find a role for them based on their current profile.
We had one cavalry unit in 2.0. Now we have two. My visual favourite. Riverguard Dambusters. Our first heavy cavalry stright from vanguard range. What I like about them is that they are weird. cavalry SP7 with fly And nimble, strider, night Def of 5+ and with sticky tongue ranged attack. Me of 4+ typical for all Riverguard but CS1 and TC2. I like them a lot. Mostly because they offer weird options with fly and shooting.
MONSTERS
Greater Water Elemental is an amazing model we should see more often in 3.0. 10 points cheaper, with strider and with better support within the army.
Knucker did not change much. Few points more expansive. Lost TC3 for CS1 and TC1 which is a good change.
TITANS
Coral giant is now a Titan. 15 points more expensive with bigger base and one additional attack. Not bad. Not bad at all!
Until 3.0 Kraken was just a more offensive giant. Not any more. He is a very different monster now. Still speed of 7 but got a Wild Charge (D3) which combined with Rushing Tides can buff his charge range to 16"-18"!We have lost 3 attacks on him but with new no bounce back rule it will be harder for enemy to flank him.
WAR ENGINES
We still have only one balista to choose from but it has changed enough it will be a viable choice from now on. No more Re of 5+. 4+ is a new way to go. Leviathan Banes has lost (+1) damage and one point of piercing (it is now (3)) but it is still a cannon-like piercing! Banes also got a new harpoon option that can be used to mess with opponent’s positioning. The major change is how it hits. 4+ is a reliable enough we will see them more often on the field of battle.
Also took my latest 2.0 winning list and checked how new points works with it. Turned out it is 50 points more expensive and weaker list. 1. Thuul cost more and I have lost Hidden Ones. Also stealthy is not that good any more due to lack of regular shooting AND LB spam being an option.
Wings and centurion got both changed (have no ensnare!, got extra attack and a point of nerve) so a def 4, no ensnare hero is a poor option in my opinion. I think I would go for a stalker instead. 11/13, Def 3 with ensnare, stealthy and 4 range attacks seems a better choice overall. Or a Riverguard sentinel with scout (but he has no regen).
King is just more expensive. He did not change a bit (except for a breath being nerfed). Envoy does the same thing. No teleport but Bastion and new Fury Aura is a good option for Thuul.
Knuckers are still a thing. A bit shorter (can not blind a dragon!)
Kraken is still a thing. A blocking unit with greater charge range.
Wyrmriders are a totally different unit now. Does not fit that list any more.
My conclusion is to change the list completely. Not shure which direction to take it but I assume surge and more spells. Eckter without a teleport is still valid (I use teleport 2/3 games really) and his windblast got even better due to the support we have got for it.
| 2.0 | 3.0 | ||
|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Thuul regiment | 140 | 160 |
| 2 | Hidden Ones | 160 | 160 |
| 3 | Depth Horror horde | 185 | 185 |
| 4 | Depth Horror horde | 185 | 185 |
| 5 | Knucker | 145 | 150 |
| 6 | Knucker | 145 | 150 |
| 7 | Kraken | 230 | 240 |
| 8 | Wyrmriders horde, staying stone | 245 | 225 |
| 9 | Eckter | 155 | 165 |
| 10 | Envoy | 90 | 90 |
| 11 | Centurion, wings | 150 | 155 |
| 12 | King | 220 | 230 |
| 2050 | 2095 |
Ok. Did a first 1500-2000 draft lists. Here are few observations:
What are Your first impressions and what lists did You build? I will share mine when I figure out how to deal with lack of unlocks.
Interesting responses.
My list changed as well and appears weaker. A standing theme across the board. Target units got “side-buffs” for different use.
My Drain list changed significantly.
HW are gone.
WR - don’t fit this role really anymore.
I might be able to make something work with new Sirens.
My Nokken list was hit too. I had 4 of them Vanguarded. They lost Vanguard and got Shambling spd6, 12" range attack with steady, instead of BW and a 15 points drop, but they dont serve the list purpose anymore being advanced up the board. I think I was in the minority for liking them. Shambling 12" range shooter. I feel like they are more a of a back line or anti flanker now instead of a board control/Initiative taking piece.
Definitely changes my oppinion putting Trident a little lower on the “power chart” seeing all the responses and my own sentitments, but it will take some time to see the competitive lists surface vs. the broad range of changes.
Here is my first 1500 point draft.
| Depth Horrors | 185 | x1 | 185 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Thuul regiment w/ sharpness | 160 | x2 | 355 |
| Treeleapers troop | 110 | x2 | 230 |
| Leviathan Bane | 105 | x2 | 210 |
| Knucker | 150 | x1 | 150 |
| Kraken | 240 | x1 | 240 |
| Envoy (Fury, lute) | 95 | 1 | 95 |
| 10 | 1465 |
35 points left. Thuul with sharpness and Fury aura and a BC option looks tasty. I could go for a hammer or brew of strength (190 for a regiment when DH horde is 185…) on a second regiment or replace it with Depth horror horde (which makes fury aura less reasonable).
Any suggestions for to complete this list?
Is this army legit. I count 4 unlocks (do note the Depth Horrors provide only 2) and you have 5 units to fill them. Am I missing something.
True. Large Infantry allows both Monster and titan bu not as the same slot.
You see the problem with unlocks now I can change it like this:
| Depth Horrors | 185 | x2 | 370 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Thuul regiment w/ sharpness | 160 | x1 | 355 |
| Treeleapers troop | 110 | x2 | 230 |
| Leviathan Bane | 105 | x2 | 210 |
| Knucker | 150 | x1 | 150 |
| Kraken | 240 | x1 | 240 |
| Envoy (bastion, lute) | 95 | x1 | 95 |
| 10 | 1495 |
It makes Fury aura a bit meh in here but I can go Bastion instead.
Well, I personally feel that the 3ed unlock design is much better than in the 2ed. The game has needed more regular infantry and cavalry, less heroes and monsters. You are just trying too hard to put there as much as possible in terms of the latter. My first 3ed army is going to be FoN. For the first games I prepared 2k force, have 6 unlocks there and use only 4 of them, so I think the unlocks system is fine. 
I agree but the thing is 1. 1500 are poor points to make a reasonable army, 2. TR has no cav hero so it need extra monster/hero choices to deal with several most problematic builds.
There is another unlocking problem. War engines. I like the idea of an army having them. And they are a BIG problem when it comes to unlocks.
My 1500 2.o list have like 4 regiments and a horde. I would do the same here but I really like having long-range shooting… And really 2- regiments and hordes with 2 infantry troops is like 60% of an army which is not bad.
Also TR is like THE ONLY faction with ONE infantry horde option 
And I do not want to use ensnares until I do not paint them.
Do you expect the Leviathan’s Banes to put in enough work to justify their cost? Seems like a lot of points for a little bit of damage and a tiny bit of enthral.
