What would everybody like to see in a theoretical/possible 4th edition?

Hobby talk / workshop
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I’ve been into kings for a few years now, enjoying collecting one of every army at a much more reasonable expense than most armies. I love the rules, and the community seems very accepting with lots of comradery. I’d love to see what you guys would like in a future edition of kings of war if mantic decides to make it. What new armies would you like to see, what would you like to see get official models, what rules would you like to see changed and what kinds of new rulebooks and novels would you like to see?

it really loved in comparison to Warhammer fantasy battles, or warmachies which was abandoned sadly by privateer press. The rules for 3rd and 3.5 are set out clearly and concisely, no weird fenagled special trays and overlays , special movement dice, and confusing dice tables. I also like well balanced the armies tend to be and magic rules don’t seem to throw a wrench into the works like whfb. I’d love to see some more spells though, maybe some for individual factions like necromancy for undead where they can raise enemy units that they’ve slain, or maybe some other mechanics unique to armies as they seem to all share a lot of the same pool of spells. i know this is for balance reasons, but it would add a lot of flavor if each faction got its own unique magic if it were possible.

I also really love multibasing and scenic basing, that’s so great for wargames where i don’t have to pick up each different model. I’ve also really enjoyed seeing people get extremely creative with their basing techniques. These forums are rife with creative armies and theming for great shelf space and I’d love to see this be the standard for the way you base kings of war minis going forward, though the option to not do so is very welcome.

What factions would you guys like to see make it from the novels, or maybe obscure parts of the rulebook get full ranges? I’d love to see kom get a full range for themselves like the twilight kin did with some excellent models. Though, I’ll say that the idea of the nights of the green lady really intrigues me in the way that old Bretonia did. I think maybe a new faction would be welcome as well, maybe like the gnomes of warcraft, some good technological steam punk faction.

As for new rulebooks with the start of a possible 4e I’d love to see a return to the big green book ideology. I want the big old tome of lore and rules, with an option of only rules no lore for experienced players/players that don’t care about the lore. I did miss the lore in the new red book, and did enjoy diving into the world and the story that really gave the world some crunch and texture, along with those glorious army spreads that give you some great inspirations for paint schemes. One thing I’d like them to add is something games workshop does which is page by page paint guides in their books that teach people how to paint their armies with images, but pound for pound mantic does much better for their rules. I do love the diagrams in the book and encourage those to continue because they do such a better job of explaining the point to point gameplay moves.

More overI’d love to see you guys who are longer in the hobby from competitors to new people in the hobby, what do you guys think, what would you guys want?

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I’m a casual gamer. So ruleswise others are better suited to make suggestions there.
Overall, I’m very pleased with KoW in it’s current state. I would like to see a second formation for every faction and more fleshed out faction specific special rules, though. Firefight makes an incredible job with faction specific command orders. It would be nice to see something like that (maybe not in that extend, though) make it’s way to KoW. Or at least make the bad ones better (like the something-root arrows for Sylvan Kin).

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Some context on my views: I’m a ‘garage gamer’, not playing at competitive events, but playing at least once a week, at home.

Even as a non-competitive player, it’s quite important to me that the factions remain very well balanced. My experience of other game systems, where there is ‘codex churn’, periodic faction updates which usually involve a jump in power for the faction concerned, is that this rarely pleases anyone for long.

Similarly, even though I’m not a competitive player I also appreciate the clean rule set. For playing at home, with my sons, it makes for relatively quick games, and rules that are within their ken. In terms of rule changes/amendments, I can only suggest minor things like the rule on flank charges Fred suggested elsewhere on this forum be considered.

Now that I have the above out of the way… I think KOW should also bring a sense of immersion into a fantasy world, and present the factions in a way that is unique and rich-feeling. At times, the game can feel excessively mechanistic, when mainly what you want is casual fantasy play. So even though it introduces some risks to balance and clean rules, I would like to see more faction-specific rules, particularly around magic, and unique elements for some characters and units.

Some ways of introducing this in a controlled way:-

1- Continue what already occurs with COK editions, to an extent. We already see special characters introduced, changes to army rules, formations etc. But perhaps rather than a character or unit just being composed of existing special rules, I think there’s a value in rules that go outside of the box and normal range of options. For example, the broadside shooting ability of the void skiffs… The doppleganger’s special rule… Whatever is introduced might be relatively minimal, a few things per faction, per COK.

2- For magic, the release of faction-specific magic spells could be on an annual basis, like with the rest of the COK rules. You could retain what we have currently, magic available to all factions, but also for each faction a small number of unique magic spells. The release of them in one go should make it easier to ensure that there is some balance across all factions. None of the magic need necessarily be that powerful, it’s simply a question of whether it would add flavour, uniqueness.

If I’m honest I also liked the way psychic powers were done in the Dark Millennium supplement of Warhammer 40k. If you picked a pskyer for your faction, you actually drew a random allocation of powers. I can practically hear the teeth grinding at the proposal of something like that, but it was great fun, frankly. If we didn’t want to have to shuffle and pick cards, as occurred with that model, you could roll dice and receive magic off a table.

Again, accept that there will be competitive-focused players who hear some of the above and will really have concerns about it. To that I would say, I do think fair competitive play, with most factions able to win, is an indicator of the overall health of the game, but it’s also not the be-all and end-all. I probably fall more on the ‘wargame with RPG elements’, and a slightly less mechanistic and chess-like KOW would appeal to me.

Last comment- I think it would be desirable to reintroduce even a minimal amount of fluff into the next ‘big red book’.

Of course the size of the book needs to be kept down, and I think having the lore available separately, as a free PDF, is a good model, but I also see a value in even two to three lines saying what a unit is, in the army listing. It could literally be as simple as something like the following, for Ogre Boomers:-

“Some ogre warriors spend their mercenary wages on brutal but highly effective blunderbusses, made by Dwarven smiths. The ogres delight in the fearsome storms of shrapnel these short-ranged weapons inflict on battlefield foes.”

Personally, when I look at some listings, for armies I am not familiar with, and haven’t read the lore, just a line or two would be really useful in telling me, quickly, what the idea is for a unit like Gladestalkers, or Lost Souls, or whatever.

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First of all I start with what I see as the fundamental strength of the game/IP

Consistency, the basic rules are the same since 1st Edition, whoever bought and build a Regiment of Elves Spearman back than ist still able to use them without the units functionality being changed
You can even play a 1st Edition army to a point, which is important for casual gamers/collectors and slow painters, that your army isn’t gone before you finished just because you started a year before a new edition is released

Easy to learn/remember rules and no new mechanism with army updates
Being able to play a tournament once a year without the need on studying all new rules and army lists for hours just to avoid surprises is an important part

Reasonable fast, no mechanic or rules that slow the game down for no reason

Beginner friendly on models, as unit bases and PMC makes this easy to start and much more likely people playing several different armies rather than collecting a single one because of the time and money needed to get into it

The background being in a good balance between a full sandbox to do whatever you want, and enough detail to build a world around (without giving away all secrets)

For the changes, whatever they are it will be fine as long as the points above are still valid
For example as much as I would like to see formation changes in the game like in historical games, changing the basing for units is too much of a disadvantage because of the reasons above for a small visual benefit

Things I would like to see is a split in the books, core rules with background in one, all army lists in another (or maybe even 3 books) and translations in other languages on release

Also to replace the alignments Good/Evil/Neutral with Shining/Wicked/Nature to get away with classic good/evil fairytale (this causes some unrest with people as how they see those, like some see it as immersion breaking that Gollochs Empire is “good” etc)

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I’m pretty happy with the game as it is now, but it is always room for improvement.

I think my main wish would be that all armies got som simple but fitting special rules. Something that might affect the way they play in a more distinct fashion than they do now, preferably something that might affect how units move or behave with each other. I think the “new” ASB-rules and dwarven movement rules are a great start for this, but it would be great if it was more of it. I understand that there is a danger of making the game too complex (and I definitely don’t won’t that!), so new rules should be simple enough to grasp for all players. Army specific rules are also a great way to reflect flavour and fluff.

Here are some suggestions (just from the top of my head ( I am basically just making stuff up as i write this))
-KoM might be able to build formations, or mabe have a retreat option (in their own phase)

  • should some armies have more troops-options with the skirmish-rule? Should most light troop-type units have it?
  • what about giving elves steady aim or piercing if they dont move?
  • orcs and ogres can get ektra overrun-range?
  • should some armies be able to interact with terrain like water and woods in a more meaningfull way?
  • Can trolls bolster the nerve of smaller creatures like goblins?
  • should the simple hero option in many armies get a special (one use?) attack of some sort? Something heroic?
  • should alignment matter more? Maybe give access to some sort of ability?
  • yellow-bellies rule (think animosity) was fun but too unpredictable. What about bringing it back but give the unit affected by it an option to suppress it by taking d3/d6 damage (the boss knocking som sense into their skulls).
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A radical move, making the whole thing a free .pdf if you sign up to trial the companion.

So, free, but requiring the new player to engage with the mantic site, making an account etc.

Or redemption codes in every ambush box for the full digital rules.

Expanding the playerbase should always be the first priority and removing the barrier of paid rules is always good.

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Would agree, while understanding why Mantic is doing it that way, having the full rules for free and paid companion subscriptions just adding quality of life features should be done with 4th

Something else I have thought about is that chariot shooting should be in general in the flank arc and not just specific for the Twilight Kin
Currently Chariots are in a strange place with armies usually having cavalry to do the same job
but if all of them have the same feature of different charge and shooting angles it would make them a different option to cavalry with its own tactical feature

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I think KoW is in a good place and does what it does well. Keep doing what makes people like KoW already.
The evolution rather than revolution approach to rules development has served KoW well.

For straight up rules I would say:
Ditch withdraw and I’d like to see Fred’s flank charge suggestion.

For flavour rules, I don’t think more spells would help.
I don’t like the “ambush box formations”, formations should be something unique that adds lore and flavour to a list.
There are a few lists that can easily be run using another list or easily be rolled into another list. Especially with special rules and keywords.

Mostly I think Mantic should keep doing what they are doing with making factions unique, by giving each faction it’s a thing that it does. Do that for all actions, but don’t overdo it.*

It’s already been done for:
Dwarfs have a unique play experience with higher De at the cost of Sp, Piercing (2) shooting and throwing mastiffs. I don think they need to be set apart more.
Free Dwarfs a certainly different, they might need a little extra, but ravens and abundant pathfinder/scout are different.
Empire of Dust has surge and drain life. I’m not a fan of surge, but it does the trick.
I feel that Undead could use a new idea, but that’s because I don’t enjoy surge. Life leech, shambling and loads of variety are difference already.
Forces of the Abyss have the regen + fury and would transfer mechanics that sets them apart.
Goblins don’t have unique rules, but the certainly have a unique play style.
Halflings have saucery and tinker keyword.
Nighstalkers have weird army wide rules and loads of weird units.
Northern Alliance have the Frozen mechanic.
Ogers don’t have special rules mechanic, but the all or mostly large infantry play style sets them apart. Siege breakers, the warlock special rule and crocodog wranglers are unique.
Ratkin have the rally on hordes and interesting hero/monster to unit interactions.
Riftforged Orcs have the thunder thing, but I think it could do with a bit of rethinking. It doesn’t quite strike a cord.
Are Sylvan Kin different enough while elves can still take verdant units? Not sure.
The Brothermark and Order of the Green Lady offer something different. Could perhaps use a bit of rethinking or strengthening their flavour mechanics, though.
Trident realm are quite unique as is. Could do with a unique mechanic like frozen though?
Twilight Kin are possibly too edgy already.

Leaving: Abyssal Dwarfs, Basilean Elves, Forces of Nature, League of Rhordia, Orcs, Ratkin Slaves, Riftforged Orcs, Salamanders, The Herd, Varangur and maybe Free Dwarfs and Sylvan Kin in need of a refresh.

*Mantic are also doing great at filling out their range of miniatures.

The idea, as I understand it, is that one can use historical minis to play KoM.

Halflings that go heavy on “Tinker” keyword units would do that.

I’ve done post on chariots before. IMO chariots should not be separate from cavalry.
If one tries to make chariots feel like chariots then cavalry will be better because in the real world cavalry made chariots obsolete.

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Hence why changing the fire arc for them, like the TK chariots already do, is something that adds a tactical option to a unit that outside of flavour does not have anything to go for them while being not out of nowhere (no new mechanic or special rule)

For the armies I agree for most part
I like the formations that add flavour and background more than the Ambush Set ones, but can understand why they do it
Best would be to have both, one formation for models, one for background

Though I don’t think every army needs a unique feature outside the unit upgrades and unit composition (like I think Sylvan Kin are ok, their main problem is the lack of models rather than lack of rules)

Yet for Undead, think they need a shift in focus and a theme list as currently there are to many different themes mixed (Evil Dead/Revenant, Vampires, Necromacers/living Dead, Ghosts)
Make the main list Necromancer themed with the option of being good or evil, and a Vampire theme list

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Generally like where things are, with mainly the Withdraw/Disengage and weird square based nimble charging being odd to be (which in part is dealt with by the flank charging proposal).

I’d like to see Ophidians get a list - they have huge amount of background and while you can proxy a list with KoM/EoD, allies normally aren’t tournament legal.

There’s things they could do to get more flavour in, just by using a lot of the currently redundant keywords, and streamlining some of the theme lists by using those keywords for unlocks/unit options.

Think the magic system is pretty good as it is, although there are some issues. TK and others that have damaging as a rule on top of spells which ignore cover/can be cast into combat are iffy. They also need to clear up the mess about Unique Spells and those that are just [1]

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Personally, I think that trying to differentiate chariots and cavalry is a trap.
They’re different versions of the same thing.
In a ruleset that already mashes up a range of technology levels, why not just have it be a flavour thing with some rules for “counts as equivalents”. Especially now that multi basing has been embraced by Mantic.

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Now that I have though some more;
I think a point unlock system (like SWC in Infinity) would be better. You get x number of unlock points and certain units cost a number of those.
Perhaps give unlocking units negative values and the heroes/monsters/cool stufff positive and require a total of less than 0.

Also, I think we can reduce the number of unit types and have base sizes just be a stat.

I think it’s a case of being a generic fantasy army and likely entry point into KoW.
Having more keyword synergies would be cool though.

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well, that is the point with multibasing and having the very same role on the table, there is no real reason to have them as their own unit.
while the different levels or real life technology do not matter at all, it is about what they can bring on the table and with Twilight Kin having a cavalry equivalent and a chariot equivalent but both having their place within the list and are not the same with different models

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