DarkBlack Magic! Misadventures in Necromancy

I have an undead army.
Most of it is still on spures. The 10 painted “test” skeletons and a necromancer wait, with the patience of death, for their fellows. Their “paint recipes” long forgotten.
There are so many zombies and I don’t enjoy surge as a mechanic for KoW, so I have been putting it off.

I have, however, been in a mood for undead of late.
In large part due to Deth Wizards, but Halloween also helped.

The nature of undead is that the painting will take some time, though.
I can start getting a feel for the army and motivate myself to paint it (if I enjoy playing it) by trying it out on UB though!
Also @Cartwright actually responded to my PBEM setup thread on this forum, so it was time for a game.

I will be recounting my shambling study of necromancy, through battle reports, on this thread.

I have a box of unpainted models; so I’ll limit myself to the models I have, even on UB, as I’m not planning on getting more soon.
The models are not even built yet and I’ll probably be single basing this lot, so unit sizes are flexible/can he divided into smaller.

I have this to work with (using PMC+unit fillers):
3 hordes of zombies
2 hordes of skeletons
1 regiment of wraiths
1 horde of deathpack (or unit fillers)
2 hordes and a regiment of werewolves (of 13 x lykanis)
1 horde of zombie trolls
2 hordes of wights
2 necromancers
A few heroes made from (Mantic) skeleton sprues.
Revenant king(s) and undead standard bearer(s). Maybe a lich or necromancer.

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Game 1: vs @Cartwright’s Brothermark in Loot

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This looks like a very thematic match up. Fairly similar army compositions with brave penitents standing against and undead horde.
The phoenixes are great support and scenario pieces and the individuals look like they’ll be a thorn in my side (spoilers; both more than I anticipated).


Here’s my eventual undead list with what I have.
Zombies and skeletons gum things up while the large infantry look for opportunities to do the work.

I like skeletons thematically and would rather paint them than zombies, so I’m going to give them a try and will likely insist on using them even if they’re a sub-par as they’re made out to be.
The regiments of skeleton spearmen are there to give alpha strike pause and have the US or the infantry hordes.

The individuals have different “secondary” abilities, but the same basic role - be inspiring and have surge.
I feel that the leaders of an undead army are where the character lies (maybe not the theme though) and there are a lot of ways to run them, so heroes is where I am most likely to change things up

Deployment:


The token on the [undead’s] left is less accessible to the brothermark and the right token is less accessible to the undead.
We both deploy to go for and delay for different tokens, which puts the main fight in the middle.
The undead look spread out, because of the variety in unit value, but the main strength is in the centre and left.

Brothermark take the first turn.

Brothermark Turn 1:


The brothermark move up in general.
The archers take the hill and start putting down zombies at range.

Undead Turn 1:


The line shambles forward. On the left the werewolves take the hill and zombies trolls shamble toward their position. The plan is to smash through and let the zombies grab the loot.

Right flank is meant to delay, so the lykanis gives the units there a reason not to advance.
The right zombie horde has maybe two more turns at this rate, so surges up so that they can hopefully disrupt something in turn 3.

Brothermark Turn 2:


Which just gets the zombies in range of more shooting and routed.
Something goes wrong with the priest’s graphic, but he can still cast barkskin. Which is used to good effect all game. The units on the left (Brothermark right flank) get out of the werewolves’ charge arc or range.
The rest of the Brothermark advance carefully.

Undead Turn 2:


The centre moves up. With the wild charge aura of the Undead Standard bearer, the skeletons can threaten the penitents while being out of their charge range.

The right zombie regiment is next to try to achieve something other than catching arrows. I send a troop of wraiths to help disrupt and delay on that flank.

If I win quickly on the left, then the werewolves are fast enough to help in the middle by the end of the game. So the wraiths go to disrupt he phoenix and instigate (with help from surge).

Brothermark Turn 3:


More zombies go down. That’s a rather poor showing, De 2+ sucks.
A regiment worth of painting zombies to take one turn of shooting does not sound great TBH.
Catching arrows is a fine job for them, but the skeletons are taking shooting hits too.

The penitents are expendable and already being threatened, so they gain as much ground as they can. Making it so that I have to defeat them to get the loot.

The instigation on the left works, but I hoped that the wraiths would last a turn.

Undead Turn 3:


The infantry start fighting and the skeletons do not impress either. The necromancer helps the shooting damage and gets a lucky waver with drain life, at least.

Alternatively; I could say that the penitents hold bravely, especially against the zombie trolls.
Wanting to get things going on the left, the werewolves try their luck on the phoenix, but being hindered makes the difference. Dashing my hopes of getting the werewolves through to contribute in the centre.
The remaining zombie horde starts heading for the centre.

The lykanis spots some careless repositioning and goes for blood. The wraiths go to disrupt, with their De 6+ and life leech vs the phoenix’s regen, that’s an eternal slap fight.

Brothermark Turn 4:


The phoenixes shake off their damage.
The ogre palace guard get involved and hit like a truck (or wights, for that matter).
Speaking of wights, one of the hawks bravely disorders a horde of wights.
The other hawk also puts his slayer to work and gets the lykanis wavered.

Subtly, the monster slayer horde backs up to get the slap fight in their arc.

Undead Turn 4:


I get some damage done! The werewolves put a phoenix down, now that their charge is clean. Which opens them up to a charge from the ogres :upside_down_face:. They might survive a turn, but need the trolls to help.
The zombie trolls do some work, but the penitents hold with insane courage.
The zombies are surged a bit, to keep the ogres busy.

The centre is less impressive, but skeletons do a bit of damage, get some back and get a waver.
The wights don’t kill, but waver the hawk. The lykanis nimbly gets away from the other hawk.

Brothermark Turn 5:


The ogres get to work, but the werewolves survive.
The penitents in the centre help clear the field of skeletons.

On the right, the monster slayers end the slap fight and the lykanis gets lucky.

Undead Turn 5:


The ogres in the centre backed up too far and left a flank open to wights, the zombie horde joins in for the movement.

The lucky lykanis tries to get a kill, but fails. Not as hard as the other werewolves though.
The werewolf horde does two damage to the ogres. One gets cancelled by barkskin and the other healed by iron resolve.
The trolls arrive too late.

The other wights finish off the penitents ahead of them
I need to try to be clever and take a risk to go for a win here.

The wights that flanked the ogres turn around to face the monster slayers.
Wights have better odds than not to survive a charge from the monster slayers or two penitents in the flank. I’d have to get unlucky to lose both (and therefore the game), so I bank on at least one surviving.
If the top wight horde rout and the Brothermark unit advances to get the loot, I flank them on turn 6 and take it back.
If the other wights rout and the unit that fought them advances then they hit the top wights before the loot (one penitent regiment in the flank isn’t likely to do it).

The hawk can do enough damage to tip the wights over the edge, so I try to waver him with drain life, but fail.

Brothermark Turn 6:


The hawk does indeed make the difference, but the top wights hold against the monster slayer horde.

The phoenixes get out of the way and grab a loot.

The field is cleared of werewolves.

Undead Turn 6:


The trolls get a flank, but only waver the ogres. Which I’m ok with.

The zombie regiment finally get there!

I don’t think that the wights can take another charge from the monster slayers, so I send in the zombie horde in a multi-charge to grab the loot token.
I use the banner to stop the zombie horde from sliding down far enough to get flanked by penitents.
Neither matter, because the monster slayer horde wavers and there is no turn 7.

Giving the undead a victory!
From a narrative perspective; I think that the Brothermark consider this a victory, unaware of the necromancer’s true objective.

After game thoughts:

For all my disappointment with the zombie’s staying power, zombies held the loot at the end.

I’ll be dropping them from the list, for now, because they are at the bottom of the painting queue (for model number reasons).
Once everything is painted, I’ll probably have at least two regiments to hold objectives in almost any list, though.
I’ll fill the points with more werewolves, because speed + nimble is nice, but also because I got load of Wrath of Kings werewolves on a clearance sale. :sweat_smile:

This was the kind of KoW game that I really enjoy. Close run, the result was in question up to the end, and with a nice narrative of brave penitents standing up to the undead hordes.

7 Likes

Thanks for the game and the writeup! This was a fun one that went down to the wire.

2 Likes

Geez, I am so far behind with everything – thank you for the report! I finally got to this and what a game! I can personally attest that the Brothermark list is hard to deal with, so kudos for coming out on top.

I am also more of a fan of Zombie Regiments over hordes (easier to hide, decent Nerve, they unlock if you need it.) Against a melee army (Orcs, etc) the hordes might feel better, as it’ll take a few turns to get into combat, and then they’ll be fighting against a unit that is often twice their points, which is nice for a tar pit. Hordes against shooting though, particularly the cheaper bow shooting, can be very rough. The Def2 on the Zombie hordes is such a big liability as they are hard to hide and anything with a bow is going to start accruing value for your opponent almost immediately. I haven’t found a great use for the yet other than run forward and get shot.

I think that is where Skeletons can come in for the Undead though? Def4 still isn’t great, but my little theory is that the Skeletons should be a little more attractive in metas with active bow shooting, and could be worth the extra points. They even had a neat interaction with the ASBs with the Wild Charge Aura to give you a little more board control.

I think you are right about the heroes – the Undead have a ridiculous amount of heroic options, which can give a lot of neat options for the undead and really make armies unique. I am really excited to try out more of the choices myself!

Adding to that army uniqueness idea, I think we are spoiled for anti-chaff with a lot of options around the 115 points mark (troops of Revenant Cavalry, troops of Mummies, regiments of Zombie Trolls and troops of Wraiths). These smaller, more expensive / elite units provide a lot of great support for the larger blocks of Undead, if they can stay Inspired. I’ve had a tendency to charge out Revenant Cavalry and Wraiths a little too early and lose them to hot dice, so knowing when to push with the Undead seems to be a critical skill.

I’m behind on everything, but I’ve got a couple more Undead games of my own to post here still, and a surprising game against the Undead recently as well. The Undead army has a surprising amount of depth to them. I think your collection is definitely viable for some fun lists, and look forward to seeing some more games from them!

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Glad you enjoyed it.

Yea, zombies are very soft. De 2+ makes a difference.
That said, they kept that side busy for long enough and took enough attention away from skeletons and the lykanis so that the Brothermark left flank didn’t really get in the game.

I am nervous about relying on zombie regiments to score. They’re not hard to take off, so need to be scoring out of reach.

I think the key to zombies is to really consider them expendable. If you’re taking them, then you want them to be an attractive shooting target, so that they get shot instead of something else.
As a dwarf players, the best case scenario with soul reavers is shooting them off before the get to you.

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Game 2: vs @Cartwright’s Northern Alliance in Push

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Lists:


A though centre with hard hitting heavy infantry, nimble squares to solve problems and flying shooting to put on the pressure. Looks solid and versatile.
The frostclaws have to project most of the threat though.
Individuals are important to undead, as they should be thematically, which makes the flying iceblade very concerning.


I’m running a slightly different list. More werewolves, at the expense of zombies; because werewolves are faster to paint (especially per point). These games are to get a feel for the army while I paint it and zombies are at the end of the painting queue.
I’m experimenting with heroes; I’ve kept the lykanis and the trio with inspiring and surge, added a necromancer with Ej Periscope. The inspiring necromancer is tooled up for support with heal and Veil of Shadows. The periscope necromancer is meant for mischief, with drain life and hex. Both necromancers have surge.

Deployment:


We roll up the same Epic Dwarf Map, but I choose sides this time.
I immediately wish I had some zombies to hold loot.

Th plan is to push on the right side of the map (undead’s left flank).
The buildings and obstacles make it hard to project threat form the bottom right, but units from the top can cross the middle for extra points without having to get past the second building.
I can hopefully overrun what ever tries to come through between the buildings and push my loot to safety there.

The Northerners deploy to test this plan, by stacking their frostclaws on the right.
The spread out the hearthguard makes for a challenge to deal with.

Undead Turn 1:


Most of my undead shamble up.
The lykanis moves to interfere with the frostclaws.
The NA leaning right gives my werewolves free reign to delay on the left.

Veil of shadows fails and doesn’t come up again. Hex (with periscope help) fails too.

It’s at this point that command dice come up (my opponent took a red).
There isn’t anything I would have done with one so I don’t bother for this turn, but we are using them.

Northern Alliance Turn 1:


The frostclaws move up to start putting pressure on the right and deal some good shooting damage.
The NA move up conservatively. Except the iceblade shudders.

Undead Turn 2:


Most of the undead shamble up and the second line units on the right get on the hill.
The other werewolves also move onto a hill to delay the NA left flank.

The iceblade and hearthguard are problems. The iceblade is a threat to the individuals that I need.
The hearthguard is a threat, but I need to draw them out. If I charge them in a turn or two, but they’re still on the obstacles, they probably survive the hindered charge and destroy anything on the (unhindered) counter charge.

So the zombie trolls try to solve both, since they can’t take much more shooting anyway.
They drop the loot (which the wraiths grab), move to look at the ieblade, use 4 CP to cast drain life and then get surged into combat. The extra damage from drain life should push the iceblade to a rout and then they can invite a hindered charge from the hearth guard.
After drain life and life leech they should even survive.
Poor damage and a double one means that they will be a sacrifice instead.

The lykanis helps out by disordering the frostclaw regiment, limiting the forstclaw horde’s options. Hopefully a fight the lykanis can win, eventually, life leech and the first charge vs similar nerve stats.

Northern Alliance Turn 2:


The trolls successfully draw the hearthguard out…
They also give the frosclaw horde and way forward.

The iceblade tries to tip the balance against the lykanis, but they don’t care.
The ice queen uses the potent CP enhanced Celestial restoration to erase my first charge advantage though.

Two snow troll primes block up werewolves. One tries to shut down surge casting while they’re at it, but the Revenant King can take a hit and the prime seals their doom for this folly.

Undead Turn 3:


Both snow troll primes get shredded by werewolves with TC from their hills.
The Revenant King leaves to disorder the frostclaw horde and gets the one point of of damage.

My line engages, so that the grind can happen closer to where I score extra point with loot tokens.
The dwarfs show courage, but not like the hearthguard.
With the wraiths and a drain life helping the wights have good odds to rout the hearthguard, but I forget that the prime inspires them and roll that combat first, for a double 1 on the reroll.

You may have noticed that that’s not the necromancer with drain life and you are correct.
4 CP means that he does though, thanks to Unholy Puppets.

Northern Alliance Turn 3:


The lines grind and my line starts to unravel on the left (undead right flank). Hopefully the werewolves can stall things.

Over on the right:
The frostclaws don’t hit back very hard without TC. The iceblade remembers her purpose shudders.
The wights are in trouble, even without dwarfs charging their flank, but they are not to be outdone for courage and get a double 1 of their own.

Undead Turn 4:


The grind continues with an insanely courageous snow troll holding the line.
The werewolves nimbly shut down the celestial restoration and threaten the back of that line though.

The wraiths flank and Revenant King the hearthguard to seal their fate and let the werewolves rout the frostclaws. The werewolves get exactly what they need, so the one damage from the Revenant Kings pays off here.
The hearthguard refuse to yield, despite being devastated.

The skeleton spears with the loot are stuck though and the inspiring necromancer is facing down the iceblade.
Drain life (Unholy Puppets again) is ineffective.

Northern Alliance Turn 4:


Things do not go the undead way on the right. The dwarfs finish off the wights (getting over the centre line too).
The hearthguard use CP to regenerate (a NA command order) and shrug off being devastated; which lets them put down the Revenant King and overrun into the wraiths and take their loot.
The iceblade does her thing shudders.
Finally, the Celestial Restoration from a few turns ago pays off as the frostclaw regiment gets a waver.

The centre goes better. The wights there hold because I don’t think that they can be triple charged (naiads must charge the skeletons).
The snow foxes make themselves very useful though.

Undead Turn 5:


Death comes to turn the tide the undead’s way. Both werewolf hordes kill their third unit, but have to stand and fight now.
The NA crumbles, meaning that I can keep the units on the left away form all the loot for the rest of the game.
The wights have all threats in their flank arcs, but skeletons flush with both flanks, so the whole line makes no reform move.

The Skeletons with the lot get technical.
They’re facing the wrong way. So they drop the loot, turn around, get surged into combat and are then still standing on their loot.

The wavered lykais purposefully exposes their flank.
The frostclaws either finish the wolf off or have them threatening flanks in turn 6.

Northern Alliance Turn 5:


The frostclaws chose to finish off the lykanis.
The werewolves on the left survive the hindered hearthguard charge, but waver. Good enough, because the hearthguard risked exposing their flank in this bid to affect the end of the game.
The cavern dweller puts on the pressure though.
The naiads can’t get over the centre line, so back up to get the wights in their front and preserve their token.

Undead Turn 6:


The wights take the flank charge, these hearthguard don’t have the insane spirit of their fellows.
Dropping the loot in a way that lets the skeleton horde cross the centre and pivot to touch it.

The werewolves on the right claim their 4th victim, getting over the centre line in the process.

Drain life fails another necromancer faced with the iceblade.

Northern Alliance Turn 6:


The NA have a last play.
The iceblade shuts down the last undead source of inspiring and the naiads go for the skeletons.
Fortunately, the undead horde are not zombies and survive to deny the Northerners a draw.

There is not a turn 7.

Giving the Undead a victory!

After game thoughts:

Very much a scenario victory, but it feels more convincing than the last!

My plan worked, despite the right becoming such an epic struggle.
Having the frostclaw regiment on the right flank instead of one unit of foxes would have made it much harder though.

Werewolves did very well this game, with 7 routs between them. It’s worth noting that they had terrific opportunities to shine though. Early charges off hills and then mopping up weak units made up for their CS (1).
Still, having something so fast and nimble is fantastic for a shambling army.

My 3 inspiring and surge choices served me well, despite getting hunted down. Having them spread out to inspire means that I game probably get two in range when I actually need surge. It’s nice that they have slightly different other capabilities.
The necromancer with periscope was not particularly effective. Drain life (4) is not very reliable and hex wasn’t needed. I think that a higher level caster would be more worthwhile for this kind of thing, so I’ll think I’ll try a Lich King instead of both necromancers. The Lich comes with inspiring, so can inspire and take the periscope.
Ideally I’d get a zombie regiment painted up instead of the second necromancer though.

Command dice were mostly spent on rerolls and faction specific orders.
They let you get a bit more out of your units in limited places and make the game move forgiving.
It feels like another (less predicable) layer of the same kind of thinking and planning as usual in KoW, though.
They’re not awful, but it feels like extra fuss for pretty much the same result. I’m not sure I care to bother.
Kind of like adding a condiment to food that I already like.

5 Likes

That’s a fantastic way to put it. It’s not that I dislike them, but I’m not sure they add enough to be worth the hassle.

Thanks for the fun game and writeup!

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Hi @DarkBlack !

Thanks a lot for another battle report. It’s been a while since I had time to read one and I can see how much catching up I have to do! Both Undead and Northern Alliance are less familiar to me, so I am glad I could read about both armies in action. The addition of Command Dice is, of course, also intriguing as these are new things.

It was definitely a very interesting game, with main battle lines trying to grind each other out, some epic shows of heroism (those double 1’s!) and some good use of maneuverability on the flanks. I think that Werewolves are amazing and I am glad you are using them. I understand that when comparing to other monstrous infantry units with CS(2) they don’t seem to hit that hard. But to me the advantage of speed and maneuverability is awesome and 18A, hitting on 3+ with CS(1) still very good. You have also used the terrain to their advantage perfectly, which may be more of an option for such a fast unit. They can get to those hills faster than anyone else!

Thanks again!

Cheers!

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It’s good to see you in the forum @Swordmaster!
I’m glad that you enjoyed the report.

Agreed on the werewolves.
Saying that werewolves are bad becasue they don’t hit hard is like saying screwdrivers are terrible because they don’t work well on nails
The caveat is that with fast and nimble units you pay for the manoeuvrbility, so you have to use it to make the unit worthwhile
There isn’t always space or opportunity to do so, but it’s easier with werewolves since their points drop and because they don’t have to pay for flying.
Two hordes were great in this game though, we’ll how they do against less elite and/or faster opponents.

2 Likes

I was happy to see the wolves do so much work, which is not often the case. In my estimation, Werewolves suffer in that they ‘need’ two fixer items (terrain mitigation + damage) to be the hammer people expect them to be, compared to their Lycan cousins, who just need a single fixer item to lift … but are otherwise also considered mediocre.

Personally, I get tremendous mileage out of a Lycan horde with strength, even if that should be the case, since that unit costs 300 points (or it did before the price drop last year!) and 300 point hammers are universally Pretty Good at what they do. And back to Werewolves, when I see a Werewolf horde with no item, I tend to discount them pretty badly. As long as I can keep a sliver of terrain to their frontage, I know damage even to a flank is going to be limited. Sorry pups.

SO anyway, the highest of fives for making those dogs sing!

4 Likes

Well, that was a very enjoyable read! Having played against iterations of that Northern Alliance list myself, it’s neat to see how others approach fighting it, as it is a sturdy list. Some wild Nerve Checks but good strategies all around!

The Werewolves had a fantastic time! Agreeing with everyone else that it was very neat to see them do so well. I played against them recently and they had a tough time getting through stuff as they were limited to front charges. I have also seen them used more as deterrence units, moving mostly up with your line and projecting threat, the eventual idea being that they can dissuade your opponents from charging, and even if they do charge your skeletons or whatever, they are getting more serious pushback and potentially flanked.

You and I have used the Lykanis similarly (my games are coming soon), and I liked them. Having something non-shambling that can zip around and be a nuisance seems very valuable for the otherwise plodding Undead, and the heroic version is easier to sip around and be a pain that a full unit of Werewolves.

Command Drain Life + Surge is definitely a neat trick for the Undead. I think your analogy about the Orders in general is spot on, but how are you liking the selection of Orders for the Undead? I think we got some good ones, but my dice have still been very uncooperative with my Drain life rolls, despite remembering that it has Piercing these days.

The Undead have a nice variety, cool subfactions, and plenty to explore. Overall, I like the army list, and really liked seeing the mix of units you fielded. How did you like the various Skeleton units and their sizes?

The Undead have a ridiculous amount of heroic options, and like I think we’ve discussed elsewhere, that’s really going to differentiate lists and make-or-break themes. My quick thoughts there, as I have been exploring and struggling a bit with all their options:

  • With the ala carte spells, the Liche seems really nice, as it has Inspiring, Fearless, Def5, good Speed, and a large variety of spells to pick from. The Periscope is a solid little investment. I have liked having one around as I experiment with spells.
  • Necromancers are intriguing, but a little taxing on lists as they do not inspire and all their spells have low amounts of dice, which might not pay off. A Revenant + Weakness grindy list seemed worth exploring, but it will be a bit for me to get there. I think Necromancers are probably at their best when they are a one-off and get the Aura and the Inspiring talisman to go support some Zombie Troll hordes and a Goreblight? If they had Inspiring (even with an accompanying price bump) they’d be more viable, but they seem a bit too niche to me right now.
  • I think we both have a bit of a stubborn aversion to legendary pics, but dang. Mhorgoth is a powerhouse, especially if you are running a bunch of Shambling units, such as the Wights. He could very well be worth checking out.

Thanks for the report!

3 Likes

Which is not how I think about werewolves.
In a list with soul reavers and wights, they’re not there to deal damage.
Sp 9 and nimble are what they’re about. Plus they’re more of a threat than most Sp 8+ nimble things (usualy large cavalry heroes)

That means they’re projecting threat and getting in positions to force a response, rather than being a hammer. They have the charge range and height to make opportunistic charges, but that’s secondary.
More of a budget dragon than a fast damage dealer IMO.

Anything is worse if hindered.
I am tempted to treat double werewolf hordes as cavalry and give them Jesse’s Boots and Drunken Ram though.
My instinct if to focus on the wights, but more threats might be the way to go.

That’s the way I see it.
Glad that you enjoyed the report!

Agreed on the lykanis. There’s a limit to how much damage they can actually do though.

The drain life + surge is great. Losing shambling for a turn hasn’t come up yet, but when the situation comes up I’m sure Ill be happy to have the option.
Not sure how I (or my opponent) would feel about winning a game with it though.

The WC on the skeletons has been nice to have.
It hasn’t come up yet, but the idea behind the regiments is that I can have more manoeuvrable and spread out counter to alpha strike. Having 2 smaller expendable units definitely came in handy this game.
I like having some more flexibility either side of the horde, rather than taking 2 cumbersome infantry hordes.

Yes, I like to tell my own story and resist “auto includes”.
The more powerful spells the Lich has add up. I don’t want to go without surge, but 40 points for surge (10) is hefty and more surge than needed. Drain life (6) sounds good though, (4) isn’t very reliable.

Next to test is artefacts on the werewolves and a Lich for me.

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Yeaaaaa I wasn’t trying to blow any minds there on the hindering comment :sweat_smile: More reinforce how mediocre I’ve found the actual threat projected by naked Werewolves to be. Thunderous Helm is a nice call, turns their lack of pathfinder but high speed into a net positive. Strider Boots obviously helps with tripping over things.

Sounds like you’re looking at Werewolves with more nuance than I’d wager most players look at them. I’ve consistently heard them compared against the many hammers of the Undead list and put back in the box, because the math doesn’t stack up. Relatively recently my buddy, who grudgingly plays his Undead still because they’re easy to transport and he hates playing his (gorgeous) Ogre army, painted up a (very pretty) Werewolf horde and has been using them, I believe with the boots. Their best games have been the ones where they punch through a flank and focus on scenario … but helps that he typically has ~3 hordes of Wights to draw attention / lift while the dogs are roaming :grimacing:

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I could have been less argumentative. Sorry about that.

Exactly. They obviously don’t stack up as a hammer and will underpreform if used like one.
If you’re not using the Sp 9 and nimble then don’t take them.

Coming from nightstalkers, I think of them like tall shadow hounds.

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If you are running Liches and Wights and Wraiths, I think Boss’s build from December is a great starting point for the spellcaster:

He can still carry the Periscope, and if you want to double up, you can take a second Liche with the Talisman of Silence to get another Mindfog 2 for 175. Only having one dice-related hurdle, Heal has been much more impactful for me than Drain Life on the Liche.

I am trying out a few other loadouts for the Liche myself, but overall the spell selection is great and being able to selectively pick just the spells you want means that the Liche should be a great pick that any Undead general can really personalize. Looking forward to seeing what you do with him!

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Noted, thanks. I’ll try it out.
My lich idea (before reading this) is a bit more aggressive.
If you’re casting on your own units then you don’t need the periscope and I believe in leaning into what you have.
Also, my thinking on this is a product of my experience with dwarfs, so definitely has some evolving to do.
With dwarfs I have found that squeezing in extra damage, rather than durability is usually the best approach.
Hence drain life over heal. I’m taking it instead of bane chant (extra damage plus healing) rather than looking to get extra out of healing.
I also tried mind fog (to shave points) and it’s nice to support shooting with shattering and slightly more reliable than lighting bolt 3 (from Boomstick). Undead don’t have shooting to support though.
The dwarfish experience is not entirely applicable, though.
I should also admit that the main reason I like drain life for undead is that it’s so very thematic. :ghost:

Here’s my take (again, before reading, so not a response/argument).


The idea being that lighting will be useful in the early and late game, when drain life is out of range. Surge is a bit of a tax.

The obvious issue is that I’m 10 points from Morgoth.
For reference:


Morgoth is more maneuverable, casts 2 spells a turn, more potent drain life (especially if cast with Bane chant), extra inspiring and dread.
Casting 2 of those spells is nice, but surge and mind fog are situational. As is having LoS to a drain life target and a bane chant target at the same time.

Morgoth is probably better, but the lich has the following going for them:
*The main thing is the Periscope. Morgoth’s extra manoeuvrbility is useful for getting LoS and/or dread in place. Lich can stay behind my skeletons and doesn’t need to fly somewhere awkward to begin with. All the large infantry complicates this, though.

  • Damage at range from lightning.
  • 10 points for something else.
  • Last, but probably the most significant, lets me rail against “auto-include” legendary heroes. I feel that their rules should be more interesting, rather than better. It shouldn’t matter if competitive players take them, it’s supposed to be a fluff thing anyway.

The idea is to be testing things; so healing lich and upgrading the Revenant King to a vampire instead of a necromancer to a lich are next to test.

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