Fun games, and thanks for humoring me.
I really like the idea of Penitent trash spam a la goblins, but getting it to work is going to take some practice.
@Boss_Salvage or others, any ideas on how to craft a better penitent trash list?
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Here’s where I’m at after some tinkering. I originally pushed up to all 6 war engines but backed it down to 3 arbalests (the in-meta choice) for sanity and spent the points saved on OPG regs to serve as flankers or combo-chargers or whatever:
Penitent Trash [2300 / 2300]
Villein Penitents (Infantry) Regiment [75]
Villein Penitents (Infantry) Regiment [75]
Villein Penitents (Infantry) Horde [125]
Villein Penitents (Infantry) Horde [125]
Villein Penitents (Infantry) Horde [125]
Villein Bowmen (Infantry) Horde [170]
– Fire-Oil [5]
Oathsworn Guardians [1] (Infantry) Regiment [180]
Ogre Palace Guard (Large Infantry) Regiment [140]
Ogre Palace Guard (Large Infantry) Regiment [140]
Heavy Arbalest (War Engine) 1 [75]
Heavy Arbalest (War Engine) 1 [75]
Heavy Arbalest (War Engine) 1 [75]
Phoenix (Titan) 1 [145]
– Heal (5) [0]
Phoenix (Titan) 1 [145]
– Heal (5) [0]
Phoenix (Titan) 1 [145]
– Heal (5) [0]
Exemplar Chaplain (Hero (Cavalry)) 1 [110]
– Horse Mount [25]
– Battle Hymns [5]
– Inspiring Talisman [20]
Exemplar Hunter (Hero (Infantry)) 1 [140]
– Order of the Hawk [25]
Exemplar Hunter (Hero (Infantry)) 1 [140]
– Order of the Hawk [25]
Dictator (Hero (Infantry)) 1 [95]
– Iron Discipline [15]
– War-Bow of Kaba [5]
19U|29US
The Guardians are there for the inspiring foremost, as I got sick of spending more points on individuals. Having a dedicated combat piece is cool too, like Mincers in Goblin trash lists. I messed with some Bowmen regs at first, but while the phalanx is cool I think it only really plays at horde size, thanks to the low De/Nv of the regs. The horde however is neat.
On the heroes, I liked the double Hunters, as expensive as they are, and then went for supporting auras or effects that are attached to inspiring bubbles. The Chaplain’s fury aura seems huge for all those peasants and I would have doubled-down if the dude inspired. As is, hopefully he can get where he needs to be. The Dictator continues to be an interesting hero that rarely makes it out of the box, but hopefully juicing up some Peasants for virtually no cost should help. If nothing else he can fire that bow as he does it!
Not sure if it’s good? But it’s definitely cool and playing an archetype I used to do with rats in 2E. Carpets of junk, questionable shooting, some bigger dudes to help push. I obviously didn’t have Phoenixes back then!
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I tried summarizing my thinking a few different times, but have been struggling to organize my thoughts due to a busy week. Breaking the Brothermark list generalized parts:
- The Penitents are cheap and can be dangerous, but the Succubi were more effective against them than I thought they would be. Had I run my usual Abyssal Guard, I’d be dealing about 2 damage less per combat, and making it even money to break a Penitent regiment, or having them favored to hold if they are rallied.
- The Phoenixes sprayed and scored more than they healed and supported, because the Penitents kept dying and they had nothing to heal.
- A one-of Bowmen horde is a staple of your army. Chipping away at something virtually every turn, even when on the move. I think that stays no matter what.
- The war machines certainly did damage, but weren’t consistent. In the first game they did some good damage, but just couldn’t coordinate. I think we both liked the Hunters more in the second game. (Well, you liked them and I feared them a bit more, but you get the idea).
- Individuals were versatile. Like we had discussed, I don’t think the Brothermark war machines can really compete with the versatility of the Goblin shooting, but heroes could be a way for the Brothermark to stand out. This a) plays to a strength of the army, and b) could be a way to attack the meta, which tends to favor monstrous scoring support pieces and very few duelists or ways to deal with individuals. As Boss notes though, it can be tough sell to spend so many points on individuals, so these choices would need to be tightened up. (The AC Wizard comes to mind. Def6 is out there, but if the plan is to drown something like the Wiltfather in Penitent bodies, you don’t need the wizard).
I think Boss makes some good points. I think the Penitent line probably needs something besides more Penitents. The Oathsworn Guardians look solid (my Oathbreakers are drooling a bit!), some Ogre palace Guard could help, or you could bust out the favored Paladin Monster Slayers to wade into the thickest fights for you while keeping everything else cheap. With the drop advantage you were getting, Spearmen could also do well to mitigate cavalry and such while not indexing into speedier units yourself, and could probably do fine as a regiment or two out on a flank.
I do think that the Penitent-focused approach has merit, and we already have some neat suggestions so far to improve this! When you want to try this out again let me know!
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I have taken a while to get to these!
It looks like you have gotten the hang of playing The Herd and understand the way the list works.
Well done and thanks for sharing the journey.
On the longhorns; I have found that having second line units is incredibly useful.
The ideal is a unit that can finish off enemies that fought through the front line, but are cost effective enough that it’s not a loss if they don’t fight (and score instead).
Speed is wasted on second line units, so a infantry unit that costs around 140 points is what I have found works for me. Regiments are a good shape to fit into multi charges and manoeuvre in the back field.
This does assume that you have a front line that will deal some damage before breaking.
I use a regiment of shieldbreakers behind ironclad (with throwing mastiffs) and a regiment doppelgangers behind butchers to good effect.
Longhorn regiments seem expensive for that role, but the troops look good. Rally sounds great from a second line and how durable they are is less important.
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Yeah, lots to think about here. I love the Abyssal Hunt in the Bromark list, but having a 90% infantry list with two sp8 regiments is tricky to pilot (esp. if I then get some troops of sp9 cav to babysit/chaff for them). The penitents are a fun unit, but figuring out the right way to support them to make them work is an interesting challenge. I may try a combo of arbalests and hunters next time out. Thanks for the writeup and all the ideas!
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Thanks for the write up! Makes me miss playing Abyssals.
I think that an aggressive playstyle brings out the best from abyssals and you showed that here. Which is very much on theme IMO. 
Succubi are great against low De and high Ne and that showed too.
I would recommend some bane chant to back them up; the high volume of attack really benefits, but you’re also not putting points into (only) a unit that can be quite fraglie.
My thoughs on the Brothermark list (before reading the other comments) is that there isn’t enough damage output.
War engines are not reliable, induviduals only do so much, phoenix is a support unit and penitents are Me 5+ with average attacks.
The De 3+ means that pretty much anything can fight them. I’d happily take them on with ironclad.
So what does the work while the penitents get in the way?
Two units of cavalry or ogres would make a difference.
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Thank you for the kind words @Darkblack!
The Tribal Spears and Guardian Brutes have been working well for me, but I feel like there is still plenty to explore with the army. More to come here!
On the second-line units, part of me still thinks those points could be spent going wider, and avoid being enveloped altogether, but especially against the Elves, having a few reactive units around felt really, really good. I am brainstorming a few ideas for other armies, and I want to explore this more as well.
In the games against Cartwright, the Abyssals definitely surprised me. I was expecting to get bogged down by Penitents, eventually win some fights, but struggle to hold the scenarios.
Bane Chant would definitely help the Succubi, but I was trying to understand their baseline performance better, and they ended up working very well against the Penitents. If I brought my usual Abyssal Guards here, I think I get bogged down and ultimately lose. The Succubi being able to run around regularly best Penitent regiments in just one combat really opened the game up for me.
Putting some ideas together… I would love to see some Ogre Palace Guard added in to this playstyle, either as hordes checkerboarded a bit behind the Penitent regiments, or as regiments as a reactive second-line unit. The extra height lets them see and join existing combats; they offer up different stats for an opponent to contend with; and they aren’t so speedy that one struggles between stretching the line into two waves or forgoing using the speed. Looking forward to seeing how this playstyle progresses for the Brothermark!
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I’ll have to work up another version of this to come!
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I lucked out into playing two games over the last week, and took the opportunity to look more at Longhorns, this time at the regimental size. Some rough match-ups for the Herd.
The first game was Invade, with the frontline Longhorns, played against some Ravenous Halflings. The Ravenous Halflings are a terror in the meta, with overlapping auras to make long, striding charges with their cavalry (as well as the bulk of the rest of their army). Here, I was out deployed, and then had a quick but vicious cycle of one-sided dice and increasingly desperate plays. I managed to lose most of my army by Round 2, so not a good showing for the Herd, nor too much to test or discuss.
The second game was Plunder with the backline Longhorns, played against a seemingly endless wall of Ratkin with spears. Almost all of the Herd’s unit rely (at least a bit) on TC to deal our damage, so the Herd struggles against Phalanx, and I’ve been waiting for more spear units to hit our meta. I had a fighting chance to take this game, but just couldn’t. I had a number of positioning errors that added up, and we had a few rules goofs with dropping Loot tokens, and overall, I just couldn’t quite put a plan together.
Good games with good dudes, and I felt like I learned a lot.
- I wasn’t a big fan of the Longhorn regiments in either role. They are a generalist unit, but too expensive here.
- Silent Hunt is still very cool conceptually, but still very difficult to use practically.
- The Herd wants to be quick and aggressive, but that plan is hard to execute if you get out deployed! I need to try and bring my unit costs down and unit count up.
- I had been experimenting recently with just one chaff piece for the Herd. I think this is viable if you have other ways to deal with chaff. With the Herd, I’ve been trying to be aggressive along the entire line, and that approach needs more chaff and more units.
- Double Tree Herder has been fun, and they can do a lot, but they are expensive and I need to figure out how to support them better. I need to build around them more if I’m going to run them both.
I should have a game or two this weekend, so (hopefully) more to come soon!
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Great games! Cheers for the double reports 
Few erroneous things worth pointing out:
- You already caught the loot token issue that makes handing them off awkward and time consuming. Bit of a bummer, I think it really contributed to the rats being able to skitter away with them so quickly but they were also set up to do so, which was no accident, so credit to the Other Brian all the same.
- Brutal, including Brutal (D3) on the Grenadiers, doesn’t trigger unless a wound is caused: “… with the Grenadiers hitting the tree in the flank, contributing 0 damage, but granting Brutal 2, and the Tree Herder holds …”
- The Herd list in the Halfling game is the same image as in the Ratkin game (which doesn’t match what you describe or actually used!)
Thanks again!
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Shoot, I did indeed drop the wrong list. Fixed now, thanks @Boss_Salvage! And thanks much for pointing out the other goofs. With more players, we keep running into new situations. I don’t recall having to chase after tokens like that before!
Also … will we be getting any Masters reps from the Free Forged??
And then, September is looking pretty good for me for games played. I got two more in this last weekend with the Herd, as I didn’t quite have time to reset and reorient enough to pick up a different army. So we ran the Herd again. Since I’ve been out deployed a lot recently, I looked to add more troops into my lists more drops and more supporting and reactive chaff to (hopefully) better protect the larger and more important units, like the Tribal Spears, Guardian Brutes, and Tree Herders, which I’ve been exploring more lately.
Battle 083 was against the Imperial Dwarfs in Kill. It goes about as well as you’d expect. I’m the Herd, and the Dwarfs castled in the corner. The additional troops approached worked well though, so in retrospect, I should have been more cagey and delayed a bit. Oh well.
Battle 084 was against the Abyssal Dwarfs in Invade. This was more of an interesting game. He brought two Overseers on Hellfanes. The additional troops did wonders here, letting me out drop him and be disruptive. A lot of dice did go my way in Rounds 2 and 3, but the Herd’s aggression paid off here since his line was pretty thin.
- Tree Herders have been fun but need support and a little building around to be effective. If I can fight quickly, they can help Inspire things, otherwise, the tree offers a lot to cover what the Herd struggles with (it has high CS for fighting high defense; Radiance of Life for grinds and chip damage, and Strider to help with obstacles).
- I tried a Gladewalker Druid with Celestial Restoration to help the Herders out. The situations there were pretty ideal. I don’t really want to stick them all the way in the way back, so Indirect was a little hard to use well, and swingy, but this was still fun and could be worth exploring a bit more.
- Tribal Trapper Troops proved to be very fun, and worth adding in to help the Herders out. I can’t see Warriors in this role, as Scout is what makes the unit viable. I didn’t like their performance as regiments, but as annoying scouting chaff, they were able to support the Tree Herders nicely and do good work generally.
- Centaur Striders proved to be great chaff for me. I played them a bit like the Longhorn troops, often just on hand to react to things. The seem better than the Longhorns in this role though. Their longer charge range helps support your scout moves (threatening retaliatory charges), and generally breaks up the charge threat of my line, making it harder to avoid charges from the Herd. At Height 3, they also screen nicely for the Guardian Brutes, such as against the throwing mastiffs! All-around, these were good units to have, and I don’t think I even used them all that cleverly.
Neat stuff from the Herd!
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Glad to see you giving them a shot! I didn’t choose the Centaur Strider troop life, it was thrust upon me by the models I had available, but I’ve really enjoyed it. Pretty unassuming unit that does more work than you’d think. As opposed to the regiments, which often seem to do less than expected.
Oof. I’ve fought the Dwarf Castle before with Herd and I think you did as much as you could 
Credit to your opponent for taking a slightly different list, I was just commenting at Masters that I haven’t seen Mastiff Packs in Imperial Dwarfs in a long time!
I don’t think you should give the dice all the credit for your win, you made savvy choices throughout and planned ahead to make those Overlords’ lives hell. A rules thing from this game: The 1" Rule doesn’t apply outside of the movement phase, particularly when reforming after combat. You overrun until just outside of touching and you can reform as you like as long as you don’t contact other models. So while those combats may have been cluttered they weren’t “messy” in a bad way. Just very Kings of War-y 
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The Imperial Dwarf individuals (Flame Priest in particular) was still making some close moves, and ending ½ inch away, but that didn’t feel determinative, so I didn’t feel like calling it out or looking up the rule. But, it looks like we’ve definitely been playing the 1” rule wrong with overruns and reforms. Thanks for pointing that out! Keep the call-outs coming. All of our players have been receptive for rules clarifications and cleaning up our group’s play, so I’ll pass this along.
Joe absolutely loves the Throwing Mastiffs upgrade, and being able to jump a Pack up to chaff and then have both the pack and infantry toss into something scary has given him some devastating plays. Even without the upgrade, the Pack seemed like a very good unit to me: giving the Dwarfs a 65 point scoring unit with ridiculous Nerve for the points. I’m surprised it wasn’t popular at US Masters… but iirc those Imperial lists were all very similar, so maybe some groupthink is to blame.
Yeah, I am still struggling to grok the Centaur Strider Regiments, but the Troops definitely impressed me in both of these games. You had recommended them long ago, so I am glad that I finally got them on the table to try out at this size. The Centaur Strider Troop Life is good!
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Thanks for the reports!
That was rough! With two regiments popping like that and an insane troop holding up an attack, I would not be so hard on yourself or the list you brought.
I like the idea of longhorns as a second line, but they are expensive for that role.
That was a though game to with the rats doing what they do best. The rules for loot tokens changed with 3rd edition, to make that kind of thing harder to pull off though.
It’s good to see dwarfs do what dwarfs do. Great use of throwing mastiffs. As you alluded to, the big disadvantage to castling is that the enemy can decide their approach.
The 1" rule not applying to reforms has already been said.
I like the centaur troops.
They’re nifty utility units and not a big points investment.
Also good to see traitorous abyssal dwarfs get smashed! 
Well played on dealing with the flyers.
Are there other spells available to the druids?
I think they might have more utility if they could do something on turns when their support isn’t needed.
I like to have a damage spell and a support spell on my casters.
Dropping the trapper troops early and wide is a nice idea. They’re able to reposition somewhat and/or contribute at range if they end up out of place.
I used to do something similar when I played Varangur, because it was a elite low drop army and I had to have at least an idea of what my opponent was doing before my Mounted Sons came down.
Mounted Sons were more dangerous, and expensive, back then and I could not afford my best units being avoided.
I didn’t have points for it in every iteration of that list, but I also tried to take the Scrying Gem.
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Thanks for reading and commenting DarkBlack! I’ve actually been meaning to get back to the Varangur for months and months (the Herd took primacy for these League games), but yeah, aggressive armies need chaff for drops and protecting hammers. You don’t want to go too-elite as the aggressor. So yeah, some tough match-ups for me here, but the Trappers and Centaur Striders were some nice inclusions for me and worth exploring more in the future for the aggressive Herd! The Halflings and Dwarfs are becoming pretty common foes, and I haven’t had good luck cracking either lately with the Herd. Both armies were really dialed in by their generals over the last few months, so big kudos to those players.
The Druids are a little awkward. The are just Spellcaster 1, so can’t max out on the fancy spells, and while they have a nice suite of commons spells, their selection (Bane Chant 2, Lightning Bolt 2, Surge 4, Wind Blast 4, Heal 2) all suffer from low dice. The Herd is not a great spellcasting faction, and none of these have felt like good investments. The Herd doesn’t get ASBs, so Very Inspiring has been tough to come by, and the BC Druids for 65 points have been stand-ins for this role as I’ve tried to explore other Inspiring options.
The Gladewalker Druids are also awkward, but in different ways. They get better dice on their common spells (Heal, Surge, Hex, Fireball and Blizzard), but don’t get Bane Chant or Lightning Bolt. They get a conditional reroll on their common spells if they are near an Elemental unit, but this just triggers with Forest Shamblers, Earth Elementals, and Greater Earth Elementals: the Wardens are Herders are Verdant and not Elementals. The Gladewalker can double-cast spells for 30 points, but it’s conditional, and both spells need to target Friendly Core Elemental units (so… just Surge and Heal for common spells, though Barkskin or Celestial Restoration could be options). They are Spellcaster 2, so can max out on a fancy spell. The Gladewalkers seem like they either can do one fancy spell well enough, or really want to be run with Elementals. I really haven’t played around with them too much yet to see how viable either approach with the Gladewalker really is.
So… Magic doesn’t seem to be a strong suit for the Herd. With non-piercing 18" range Shortbows and Firesparks as our shooting options, the Herd can’t be too patient either. Aggression seems to be the way with them, so we’ll keep trying to perfect that when I play around with them.
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I am a bit behind in posting, but I have a few of Kingdoms of Men games coming!
I committed to a tiny tournament with the Kingdoms of Men this last weekend, but it had been quite some time since they hit the table. Fortunately, our afternoons aligned for one game the weekend just prior to the tournament, and so @Cartwright was able to help beat some sense into me a bit. I brought a Giant-centric Kingdoms of Men list to test out, as well as a basic Monarch as an honorary 4th Giant, and squared off against a very versatile Sylvan Kin list in Battle 085.
To my credit, I actually had some decent ideas on how to approach the game, like using the Ballistae to area deny instead of hunt, and using Giants to zone out the central forest, but I unfortunately executed my ideas rather poorly overall in this game.
- Giants were a clever way to zone out Scout moves as well as an important forest in the midfield, but I should have deployed them with other units rather than side-by-side with each other. I was thinking I’d just crush something with multicharges, but they benefit from having a normal unit around to initiate that piece trade more than I realized.
- I think my decision to try and “deny” the center with the Ballistae was a good one, but firing lanes proved hard to maintain. My approach has been to deploy them dead-on against things, but war machines have arcs as well, and I could probably could have positioned these more cleverly.
- ASB and Shroud of the Saint. I forgot about Lifeleech in all instances. I forgot about Heal as well in an early turn, and then in all the subsequent turns, it Healed for a total of 1 with some cold dice. I played around with Druids and Heal 2 in the Herd lists prior to the spellcaster changes, and I think the small Heal spells just aren’t impactful in my games. Lifeleech should have had some synergy and help out, but with my memory failing with the latter ability like usual, it didn’t really get a good test.
- Wizard. I overcommitted on my Inspiring Sources to test some things out. I haven’t really messed with Wizards in a while. The kit isn’t bad, but I didn’t really like this. I never used Mindfog well once, and was fishing for boxcars or casting it first in the phase and then realizing I should be shooting into the same unit too. Bane Chant is nice for the humans, but I was leaning so much into Giants here, it wasn’t a great spell to have around here.
- Captain. I can definitely appreciate the utility of the Captain. Rally was neat but unimpactful for me, and he can land a punch or two. The Master Tactician and Redeployment though is why you take him, and that was still hard to for me to use. This comes from my inexperience with my lists though, since I am running new things every time instead of fine tuning one list. This kind of ability should pay dividends the more you play with the same list, and is worth exploring more, especially if you want to “main” Kingdoms of Men.
A big thank you to Cartwright! As-always, it was a great time getting together, and the game was immensely insightful for helping me make a few decisions with the upcoming tournament in mind. Those reports should all be up in the next few days, and then I’ll share them here once the last report is posted.
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That was a fun game! Swapping out the GAE and using Wanderer Kings with bows was nasty, and I’m not surprised to hear it’s getting nerfed. It was fun while it lasted! Good game and glad we could get one in!
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Well, at least you’ve shaken off loads of rust
A potential use of the Captains redeploy is to deploy something wide or out of the way, effectively giving yourself extra drops at the end.
Potentially more useful if you have high value units in your second line.
For the record, your giants charged panthers 3 times.
Bringing the total to 10 vs big stuff and 19 vs small stuff.
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Lingering on the Sylvan Kin game, I underestimated the output of the Kings, and the Bows made them really versatile. With good stats and Elite, they tended to have a lot of successful hits at whatever they were attempting, making it easier for them to then pile on their additional damage. Additionally, they were used well, easy to hide between units and such, and really only committed to melee during strong multi-charges, where you were likely to break the opposing unit, where they could then back up and slink away to continue shooting.
And that brings us to the little tournament! It was three games at 1500 points. Scenarios were determined ahead of time, with every table playing the same scenario for that game, though we didn’t get a player pack until the day-of, so we couldn’t scheme around them. Scenarios were scored a 15 / 10 / 5 approach for win / draw / loss, with an additional modifier (either positive or negative) applied to each score for the difference between the points killed by each player. (Example: You could win the Scenario for 15, but lose most of your army doing so, gaining a -4 modifier for 11; meanwhile your opponent could lose the scenario for 5, but having killed your army, get +4 for 9). The bracket in the player packet for determining the modifier was erroneous as it was based off of 2300 lists… so we did our calculation for the difference, and then mostly just passed it along to the TO to record for his rankings. All in all, a very casual tournament.
Game 1 was against a high unit strength, “trashy” Ratkin list in Invade.
My opponent layered his Ratkin line, looking to block with some units and run through with others. I got first turn though, and with some long possible charges from my titans, I was able to box him in and delay him a bit, and come away with a victory.
Game 2 was against some medium-ranged shooting from the Abyssal Dwarfs in Hold the Line
I quite liked this list idea, as it’s going to punish most things before you effectively close. Unfortunately, against speedier lists, it’s going to be hard to get more than one volley in. I lucked out with a flank charge into some Lesser Obsidian Golems, and was able to keep punching through units for the win.
Game 3 was against the Ravenous Halflings in “Double Kill” with the Scenario determined by US killed, but the attrition point modifier using points killed coming in as well.
This was a rough match-up! I think this kind of list needs more chaff and instigating units, which I will hopefully explore sometime in the future. I usually need a fair bit of luck to compete with these hungry Halflings, and did not get it where I thought I needed it. All my luck apparently went to the Crossbowmen, who contributed to 4 separate melee combats to and keep me in the game.
It was a pretty casual event, but with 2 wins and a loss, I was bumped down to 3rd or 4th place overall, as I understood it.
Being a tournament, I didn’t want to be testing things here, but there were still some things to take note of:
- The Mounted Sergeants were more useful than I thought they’d be. Their long charge range is handy! I think a list focusing on titans like this needs more chaff and instigating units, so we’ll try that out sometime and we might see more throwaway Sergeant troops creep in to other lists as well.
- Basic Monarch never had a stellar turn, but was fine overall. The 15 Point Slayer 3 upgrade might be something to consider in the future, to compliment the rampaging Giants.
- Double Giants were very swingy with their results, but were a lot of fun to take.
- The Crossbowmen proved to be a great take, though their Piercing didn’t seem as impactful as I was hoping it would be. Average or expected dice didn’t feel to matter much and the dice were either hot and on their side or not.
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I was genuinely surprised you didn’t take Slayer on him, it’s so cheap and your list had the points / justification thanks to all the rampaging …
I enjoyed the reports all the same! 1500 points is a weird points level that I find really challenging to build at. I took my crabs to a 1500 point one day some time in the summer and felt like I just didn’t have enough pieces to play the scenario on a 4x6 table, so much ground to cover when you’re a fish person / titanic crab. Which isn’t a complaint, there should be a downside for buying 240+ point ‘hammers’ over utility pieces, as I did 
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