Great reports! I’m bummed I couldn’t make it, but glad to see you make a good showing!
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Thanks you two.
It would have been great to have you there @Cartwright! I think you would have done very well.
To @Boss_Salvage 's point, yeah, in retrospect the Monarch should have gotten Slayer, just to cover my bases and give him more of a defined role. I remembered that upgrade pretty late in the list building, and decided not to second-guess myself and still buff the Footies. We’ll buy Slayer in his next 2300 list. Like you said, it was hard to fit everything into a 1500 point list!
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And I managed to sneak in another game recently, looking to give the Undead another try. Maybe we’ll yet convince Darkblack to hobby up his collection! Up now is Battle 089!
My opponent brought some typically sturdy dwarfs, as well as some Earth Elementals to try out again. Not a ton of hammers, but very defensive. I wanted to get some more general experience with the army, so I ran a variety of Skeleton units, as well as a strong shooting component (relatively-speaking, the Undead don’t have a ton of options), to see how viable that felt for some possible combined arms lists in the future.
- I tried a unit tray for some individually-based Revenants. Unit tray converters get really complex once you get away from infantry, so this seems like a good army to use 'em. With the round bases, the key is to paint the trays up to match your unit, to sell the Kings of War multibasing approach.
- I didn’t like the Balefires. This wasn’t a great match up (Piercing 2 vs Def6), but the rules are clunky as well. I’ll give them another try in the future with a different style of list, but so far, they are not something I am interested in pursuing much.
- Skeleton Archers was also underwhelming. Again, not a great match up. They have a price parity with a lot of near-peers (Villein Bowmen, KoM Bowmen), but just didn’t feel good on the table.
- The Zombies vs Skeletons debate is real! The gist of the argument is that Skeletons are bad because you pay for the extra defense, but so much has CS/TC/Piercing that most things end up wounding you on 2’s anyways, so the Zombies are the better buy. That seems to hold water. I think there are a few specific cases where skeletons could have a niche though: Skeleton Spears vs Cavalry, where Phalanx can really help you out; Skeletons vs Bows, where the extra Defense helps against those non-piercing shots; and trash heavy (mirror) matches, where again the Defense could mitigate the damage coming in. Even generally though, I felt like the Skeletons were ok, because they were a bit more survivable. You can still get good work out of them.
- I still really like the Revenant Wyrms, but the breath attack was underwhelming as it didn’t have great synergy with the rest of the list. Perhaps a more spell-heavy build with Lightning Bolts or something could be a thing. I won’t not take it, but it won’t be something I strive hard to fit in.
I had some rules goofs, but the Undead were still a lot of fun to field and did well despite a tough match up!
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Cheers once more! Funny thing, I didn’t even register your list as ‘shooty’ until your recap - I guess it certainly is for Undead? You never said it had to be effective shooting 
A rules thing:
The Horde was holding a token, but I decline to pick it up with either unit. The Revenant cavalry are going to be fighting soon, and I don’t want them to pick it up and give it away.
As I understand it, victorious units must pick up the loot tokens of enemies routed in melee. However they can also then immediately drop it under their footprint during regroup. Besides being mandatory, this helps give a token some protection from being snatched up by vengeful enemies on the charge - your unit has to be killed first and the victor typically has to reform or overrun to get the token under them.
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Thanks for the write up!
The ratkin list has decent support for all that infantry, but I have the same concern for it as I had with the penitents spam list a while ago (and the early iterations of my dwarfs).
It could do with something to deal some more damage.
There was only infantry for your giants to charge and they charged 8 times.
That’s great example of mitigating shooting with an oblique approach. Well played.
Your giants did a lot of work!
They charged large or monsterous infantry 4 times, infantry 3 times and a swarm (mastiffs) once.
That was a though match up against all that speed and nimble. The dice didn’t break your way either and you needed them to. Get 'em next time!
You only got in two charges with a giant, both against rampage targets.
That adds up to 15 charges vs rampage targets and 4 charges vs slayer targets, bringing my giant tally to 14 vs big stuff and 34 vs small stuff.
Does that answer it or should I keep counting?
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that seems pretty clear to me.
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Wild thought I had reading this: What if Ratkin Slaves instead??
Here’s the 1500 Ratkin list:
Spear Warriors Horde - Plague Pots
Spear Warriors Horde - Plague Pots
Spear Warriors Horde - Plague Pots
Spear Warriors Regiment - Plague Pots
Spear Warriors Regiment - Plague Pots
Spear Warriors Regiment - Plague Pots
Wretches Horde - Fire Oil
Wretches Horde
War Chief - Lute of Insatiable Darkness, Aura (Vicious (Melee) - Infantry only)
Warlock - Conjurer’s Staff, Heal (4), Bane Chant (3)
Warlock - Ej Periscope, Heal (4), Barkskin (5)
Birthing Daughter - Shroud of the Saint
12 (27)
Here it is converted to Ratkin Slaves:
[F] Slave Warriors Horde - The Last Breath, Fire Oil
Slave Warriors Horde - The Last Breath
Slave Warriors Horde - The Last Breath
[F] Slave Warriors Regiment - The Last Breath
[F] Slave Warriors Regiment - The Last Breath
Slave Warriors Regiment - The Last Breath
Slave Wretches Horde - The Last Breath
Slave Wretches Horde - The Last Breath
[F] Taskmaster on Chariot
Overmaster - Infernal Advance
Iron-Caster - Conjurer’s Staff, Heal (3), Bane Chant (2)
Iron-Caster - Ej Periscope, Heal (3), Barkskin (5)
12 (22)
It’s very much the dark twin of the rat list, losing a lot of defensive tech (spears + pots + 2 rally sources), 5 pips of heal, and 2 pips of bane chant for all that last breath damage, 2 more inspiring sources, a mobile scoring / flanker in the Taskmaster, and the weirdness that is Out of My Way, Worm! Surprisingly it keeps both the vicious aura (on the Taskmaster) and the strider aura (on the Overmaster).
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I happen to be convincing myself! By trying them out on UB.
I’m sneaking in a PBEM with undead (that I have models for) vs @Cartwright.
I’m not sure if (or when) I’ll have time to write battle reports for my adventures in necromancy, though.
On that note, thanks for the write up.
It’s extra interesting when you’re testing units that I’m considering too.
That was a close fought game, with both sides brining their own definition of grim determination.
On the list, I’m glad that you gave shooting undead a go.
Now we all know how that goes.
I agree that there doesn’t seem to be enough there to lean into.
Speaking of leaning into things. I think the undead list’s stengths are: access to cheap “expendable” troops, great support magic, several good high power units and being able to take advantage of a messy/chaotic battlefield (with surge, flying hammers, powerful induviduals).
What I think the list was designed to do, and I would lean into is that: the cheap stuff lets you have loads of drops and US with points left for high value units (230+ points).
So undead can flood the field with expendable units that make opportunities for and stop the opponent from effectively countering several dangerous high value units (soul reavers, wights, even a dragon).
It also leaves points for high value induviduals (150+ points). You can take the extra spells/caster and it’s ok that the vampire doesn’t score, because there are plenty of zombies to do that.
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I thought there was a “may” in that section, but re-reading, there is not. It looks like you are correct! Thank you.
@SquirminVermin was the Ratkin general, and likes going against conventional wisdom. We’ll tag him here and I’ll pass along the Ratkin idea. As Data and Dice recently showed, the Ratkin Slaves are not popular, and a more unique approach on the Ratkin might very well appeal to him.
And thank you very much for your tracking efforts @DarkBlack. I idly wondered how long you’d keep at it, but I did enjoy seeing the numbers go up! I think it has been established that I like my Giants with Rampage. Your watch has ended. Thank you!
So far, I’d agree with your take on the Undead: given how cheap most of their units are I think one is going to need to lean in to the expensive heroes and such to make the army work. I’ve got about 9k hobbied up, and maybe another 2k in-process, with only a few entries currently missing in the army roster. If there is something you are interested in seeing, let me know, otherwise I’m just going to be wading through the roster bit by bit exploring everything, like I did with the Herd.
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I’ve been on a roll and managed to get two more games on the books, this time with the Varangur!
Battle 090 was against the normie Orcs in Plunder. I played ok for facing a brand new army, but the dice were really something this game!
Battle 091 was against the Abyssal Dwarfs and some of their Orc slaves in Dominate. Given the scenario, I was worried about double Lesser Obsidian Golems, but the Slave Orcs have pretty bad Nerve as it turns out, and we were able to make some good plays and snowball some early advantages for a pretty commanding win.
The Varangur are more elite than most of my other armies, and will take some getting used to! I’ve wildly overshot my goal for games played in 2024, so will see if I can push my luck just a bit further and break 100 reports by the end of the year, and get a few more in with the Varangur. For now…
- Magnilde and Kruufnir are fun, strong picks. I forgot how much fun they are to run.
- Mounted Sons are strong, but still need combo charges and support to do well. The Tundra Wolves seem like strong screens for them.
- Night Raiders and bows had good games for sure. I didn’t get to play around with Scout, but that seems like a very fun and useful unit to have around.
- Human Tribesmen with CS2 had some bad luck. I expected a little more from them all the same. A more grinding approach with Def5 might be better. I’ll just need to test 'em both out I suppose!
- Reavers had some good showings due to dice, but also have Tundra Fighters which has a neat interaction with the Cavern Dweller’s Chilling Presence. Not a staple, but could be a fun unit.
- It wasn’t just me, the Cavern Dweller is pretty hard to deal with! They had pretty strong dice and good performances in both games. Tundra Fighters on the Tribesmen might be a good upgrade to take in future lists.
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As expected from two combat armies, an absolute smash up!
Both look like fun to play.
The Varangur list has changed a lot since I played Varangur in 2nd Ed.
I also ran Mounted Sons, but they were even scarier back then.
I found that bringing them to bear was the key. So I deployed mobile units wide (and magnus conclaves) until I had a rough idea of where my opponent was going to commit. The details of how my opponent deployed didn’t matter as much because I could smash pretty much anything and had wolves as chaff.
The Scrying Gem was useful with a list like that, but I didn’t always find points for it.
I also tried reavers, but ended up dropping them. They’re a glass hammer and need to be screened and protected, but in an elite list like Varangur units need to be able to take care of themselves. Mounted Sons are worth screening, but they can also take a few hits and still deliver.
I think it’s only worthwhile bothering with chaff and screens for high value hammers (230+ points), which reavers are not.
I also tend to avoid named characters, but Kruufnir adds some cool flavour to the Varangur.
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Yeah, I had a ton of fun in both games, and the smashy Orcs were quite a refreshing change of pace. I am looking forward to seeing them across the table again.
The Reavers were definitely fun and had a great time due to Insane Courage, but yeah, they are likely not competitive picks for all the reasons you’ve raised, nor worthy of dedicated screens. Still, 135 for the troop isn’t a bad second line unit, and their expected output is good, so I’ll likely play around with them more.
The Varangur are such an elite army that I’ve been struggling to build lists I am happy with. We’ll see what I can do with them in the coming months!
…And, I apparently neglected to post Battle 092, with saw the Herd’s Triple Tribal Spear Hordes go up against the Brothermark Penitent Spam of Cartwright in a game of Plunder.
I was pretty jazzed about the Herd list, as I squeezed in three hordes of Tribal Spears, lots of shooting, and several fliers (including the Avatar of the Father again) to all test out all sorts of stuff.
- Three hordes was fun, but I think given them each an item was probably an overinvestment. At Def4 and 20/22, they are not brawlers, and making them ~250 points each (230, 255 and 260) seemed to be asking a little too much of them, even though they each put in great work.
- With just 18” shots, there isn’t a ton to really lean on, but it did ok, and I liked having the options, as well as running smaller Regiments of Scorchwings and larger Regiments of Centaur Hunters, and having my shooting split up between these units. Herd shooting was impactful, but mostly due to luck. I don’t think the shooting attack on the Flying Beast is worth it. Even with the extra shooting, you want that threatening charges and such, and trying to do that while positioning for shots was too much for me.
- Fliers got some good use this game. The Flying Beasts each got some flank charges, but with just CS2, Def5 proved to be a bit too much for them to deal with. The Avatar of the Father started stronger than usual, but fought and found another insane unit this game, stopping him up pretty hard. I still like the Avatar concept, and feel like he is just getting unlucky.
Across the table, the Penitent Spam continues to iterate, and I continue to like the unit and the concept. I think dropping the war machines was a good call, and that 3 Phoenixes with 2x Penitent Hordes and 1x Bowmen horde is a great core list. The Brothermark have a strong heroic toolbox to work with, so we’ll see what he brings next and what goodies Clash brings the army as well!
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Thanks once again for the report! How’d you like the list, in the end? You seemed quite up on the Trapper troops and Scorchwing regs (I prefer regs for the Free Dwarf birds too), but kind of down on the triple Spear hordes and the flying monsters. Maybe it was how expensive the Spears were compared to their output? Strong agree on the BON shooting upgrade, tho I like it on the foot version that nobody takes, especially now that nimble is baked in …
Also some report notes, per usual:
- The Herd list image is a repeat of the Bromark list
- Martyr’s Prayer is currently a unique spell, so the Conjurer’s Staff doesn’t work on it (the new COK changed what makes a spell unique so this may not be true in y’all’s next game!)
- The Individual rule includes Steady Aim, so the Tracker is free to move and shoot without penalty
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Fixed the list upload, noted on the spell, and thanks for the clarification Boss! I was joking during the game that I’ve been meaning to reread the rulebook, basically for the entire year. I’ll need to read Clash, whenever it arrives on my doorstep, so I’ll try to read through both and hopefully clean up some of my play. Individuals are weird.
I would definitely run this style of list again, it was fun to play and I could have played it better. I’m rusty on the uses and output of the all of the fliers, and there is still a lot I can learn from playing a list like this again.
- Tribal Spears are in a great spot, as Pathfinder and Speed 6 and TC lets them punch above their weight relative to other infantry hordes, and often get the first charge in. They hold items very well, but yeah, buying 3 big items impacts that weight-class math a bit. Next time, I’d dial it back and just take one item, whatever that may be. All three are viable options, and I think more games would be needed to fine tune the item-pick.
- I hadn’t used the Flying Beasts (or Scorchwings) in a while, so I’m down on them because I didn’t use them as well as I could have. Token-carrying goof aside, in Round 3, for example, I probably should have charged the Beast and the Scorchwings into the flank of the Ogres, and overall just tried to make better use of my mobility and height. With just CS2, the Beasts run into math trouble against Def5, so they needed more support than what I gave them here, and that’s why I’m a little down on them.
- I do like the Trapper Troops. With so much speed in the Herd, their Scout moves are pretty easy to support, and it’s risky for your opponent to charge them if they do happen to get the first turn instead of you. With their combat stats they should be able to land a couple damage on things to hold them up as the rest of your line advances. The shooting is a plus, and it’s the scouting and positional advantage I am most liking right now. In a more competitive meta (Lightning Bolts, Gladestalker shooting etc), these will be harder to use, but there might still be a place for a unit or two. I want to play around with the Trappers more, and we’ll see what can be learned.
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I unfortunately had to forgo a Halloween game today, but that gave me the time finish up a battle report, so I can’t complain too much. I got a game in last weekend against Rob and his Ravenous Halflings! They’re heading to an odd tournament in November, and he wanted to test some things out. I brought the Kingdoms of Men for a bit of a rematch, and Battle 093 can be found here.
The tournament is the Renegade GT, which has an emphasis on heroes. The gimmick is that you must use one of your unlocks to take a hero from another list. The hero can take items and upgrades, and counts as a core unit (instead of an ally). If the Renegade is an individual, the tournament gives them Objective Secured, and the ability to pick up Loot Tokens. It a neat concept, but messy.
The Halfling list was pretty typical, running lots of Ravenous like Stalwarts and Juggers and making use of auras from the Sauceror and the Muster Captain. They enlisted a Summoner Crone with Weakness and Bane Chant to give them some spellcasting.
The Kingdoms of Men brought triple rampage Giants, some Fanatics, some Chariots, and the Outlaw formation to try and get me some extra drops, and experiment with a unit similar to the Tribal Trappers that I’ve been liking recently with my Herd. My Renegade was a Morax Mansplitter to play around with Keywords, and give a TC1 Aura to my berserkers. We threw down in a game of Plunder.
- Chariot Regiments did not have a good time, but I was taking them to instigate piece trades, apply pressure, and draw fire, so I guess that’s ok. I’m not quite done hobbying on them yet, but I think Troops and larger Hordes are probably the best picks? Regiments felt a little weak to me in theory, but we’re off and testing now and we’ll see how the unit does in all these sizes in the future.
- Rampage Giants did fine, though I forgot Brutal in a pretty critical early combat . They zoned things out well, I found good charges for them, and they ultimately traded well.
- Outlaw Formation was much more effective here than the other time I’ve run it. They gave me the drops to stay even with the Halflings, which was very nice. I forgot the formation gives the Bowmen Troops Steady Aim, which is a nice buff as well, and will probably try this again. Much more effective here than in my MMU human attempts from a few years back.
- Crossbowmen did great at just zoning out a few tokens and keeping the pressure on.
- Fanatics and the Orc Mansplitter tried, but were a little underwhelming as they cannot take much of a hit themselves. This didn’t seem like a powerful pick for a Renegade, but it was a fun one.
I don’t know if my schedule will allow another practice game with him, but we’ll certainly try! It’s always a pleasure to play against the Halflings!
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I have a report against them to write too…
I also found that the phoenix shooting to be more dangerous than expected. 
This game really shows how good they are at scenario and support.
I like the triple tribal spears, but I’m also not convinced that investing heavily in artefacts for them is effective.
Losing the chariots like that was rough! Ditto the insane courage rolls. Well played for keeping the game so close despite all that.
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Yeah, he mentioned you two were playing. Sounded like an interesting game and I hope to read about it soon!
…and then up now is Battle 094, with the Kingdoms of Men going up against the Basileans in a pseudo demo game of Invade.
My opponent is newer to Kings of War, but had played a handful of games already. Being somewhat familiar with the mechanics and such, we abandoned my usual approach for intro games, and played this smaller game proper, rolling for sides, deploying, and rolling for turn order too. My rulebook hadn’t arrived yet, so this is all 2024 stuff.
- Foot Guard and Lifeleech 2. I used Hann’s plus an ASB to simulate the Lifeleech 2 coming in Clash 2025. I tried to be aggressive with the unit, and they did take charges. I remembered Lifeleech a majority of the time this game, so baby steps. Still not a fan of our ASB’s aura, but I’m making baby-steps remembering it.
- Chariot Troops with Bows were ok. I got a little more paint on them in the interim, and they did much better this game. The Troops seem great as instigators. I liked the bows as the Chariots are not nimble, so the bows give them something to do when you hold them back, but their actual output is negligible. I don’t think you want bows unless you have another shooting component, like my usual Crossbowmen.
- Outlaw Formation. I ran them as a cluster, and I did I not like that. I think the troops need to be spread out and doing odd jobs, like stalking loot tokens. They are there to play scenarios and maybe jump up to take a hit, not do damage. I remembered Steady Aim, but forgot Volley Fire was predicated on not moving. They obviously overperformed in the damage dealing department. Having now made errors in both directions, hopefully the next time I run them 100% correctly.
It was a smaller game, but a nice and quick one. I didn’t play the best game since the Chariots were a little tricky to position, but I think my experience definitely showed here. That said, he was a quick learner and had good intuition as the game progressed. I think I’ll be in trouble when his real army hits the table!
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Interesting to see the how the chariots work out.
I would give your opponent one piece of advice: Focus your army. Units need to support each other to enact your plan to win the scenario. Otherwise your high value units get distracted while the rest of your army is outmatched.
Your post on command dice is pretty much what I think too.
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Same. I’m not opposed to trying them out, but what I appreciate about KoW is that it’s simple, streamlined, and elegant. Adding complexity for the sake of complexity just seems like bloat to me. I guess we’ll see how it actually works on the table.
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“Soon” is a stretch, but here it is.
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