Regnum Aeternum - Written Battle Reports for KoW 3rd Edition

[TastyBagel]

Oh geez, replying 25 days later… time has definitely gotten away from me. Thanks for reading @Rune!
Yeah, I don’t know where the idea originally came from, but the TO has done this Veto/Pick selection at both of the tournaments he’s run over the last year, and I am totally here for it. It apparently is tougher to score on the back-end, since everyone is playing a different scenario so points end up just being W/L/T instead of a potentially wider spread, but picking the scenario adds a nice layer of planning game-to-game and I’ve enjoyed it. I’d definitely recommend folks try this out sometime!

Then, it’s been nearly 2 months away, but I finally made it back to the table recently. During my time away from the table I didn’t get much hobbying in either, but I did manage to repair my Lycans and so I wanted to test them out, and explore some troop-heavy play again, so I brought the Herd back out.

Battle 115 was against Joe’s new elite, human-centric Northern Alliance force. Joe’s got a lot of army ideas, and it was need to see one hit the table and look so good – I really liked all the plank bases he went with.

Battle 116 was against Rob and his Ravenous Halflings. This is always a touch match-up, but every Nerve check against me was 9+ and with a lot of small troops on my side of the table, it was a very quick game.

• As discussed in DarkBlack’s necromantic thread, Lycan units take some finesse, and one really needs to be using their speed to get around enemy lines instead of charging into the front sooner. I tried a few different approaches with them. The first was deploying on the wings to pressure and threaten flanks, which worked well. The second was centrally, trying to project threat through the center. The latter approach didn’t work, as I had nothing to really back up the Lycans, and no significant presence on the wings. Going forward I think I want to prioritize moving/threatening with them over charging, and think moving them to threaten flank/rear charges will do more for me than actually getting them into combat. Overall, I’d reinforce for takeaways elsewhere, namely that the Lycans are not a hammer and won’t hard-carry your list to victory with brute-force.
• Troop-heavy play was fun, but a little risky. It was a bit of a rock-paper-scissors result here, with troops besting the elite list since I can chaff them up, but losing to lists with more ranged damage output, since they can pick my troops off and turn them into a liability. Generally-speaking, 6 troops is probably a bit much, but Harpies, Trappers, and Hunters all have differing roles and I haven’t quite settled on exactly what I like yet.
• The Wiltfather continues to perform for me. Available in several armies, he’s got a reputation and demands your opponent come up with a plan. Even with my opponent actively avoiding him, Cloak of Death helped, and he was able to contribute.
• The Avatar of the Father is still alluring, but I have not found his niche yet. He’s been unlucky, but I also can’t help but also conclude I’ve been using him poorly. I think he gets better the more speed you have in a list, and that’s not something I’ve explored much. I think he might have some play with Lycans as well, so we’ll continue to swap him in here and there and see if we can find a home for him, and I’ve already got some ideas coalescing.

[Boss_Salvage]

Thanks for the games! A welcome respite from work, and always nice to see your Herd out and about. Your current builds are more towards my take on the army (hammers of different flavors + useful friends) - I dig ‘bruiser’ as the name for the list archetype

@TastyBagel

Battle 115 was against Joe’s new elite, human-centric Northern Alliance force. Joe’s got a lot of army ideas, and it was need to see one hit the table and look so good – I really liked all the plank bases he went with.

I’m pretty sure y’all played on the infamous "c_ck and b_lls’ Epic Dwarf map

It’s a rough one to navigate with the nearly 3’ of LOS blocking terrain. Very cool NA army! Agree on wedging Hrimm in!

@TastyBagel

Battle 116 was against Rob and his Ravenous Halflings. This is always a touch match-up, but every Nerve check against me was 9+ and with a lot of small troops on my side of the table, it was a very quick game.

I’m looking to finally run the Father next time I take my Herd out, so naturally I’m always rooting for yours (he had this moment(s) this game!)

On your shiny new Lycans, I feel like you proved why I always give them +1 CS or +1 Me. They’re a little pillowy without a boost, but De 4+ means they’re pretty soft when the enemy gets to hit them back (or first )

[TastyBagel]

@Boss_Salvage

I’m pretty sure y’all played on the infamous "c_ck and b_lls’ Epic Dwarf map

That’s the one! My inner child was amused, but it’s a bizarre map…

I’ll be quite interested to see how your Avatar performs for you. I think there’s something there, but I haven’t quite found it yet. I have a few more list ideas for him though, and hope to get to those games in soon to share.

[DarkBlack]

@TastyBagel

Battle 115 was against Joe’s new elite, human-centric Northern Alliance force.

That was a great sowing for The Herd, with almost all of your unis doing what they do best.
Declining the triple charge to avoid a kill or die one of your units was sensible, a shame that you didn’t get the benefit.

Agreed on the Lycans and the same goes for werewolves. This game really showed how to do well with them, but also not. Still the horde that got stomped did do something useful
It’s rare for both flanks to have space to nimble around things, perhaps there isn’t enough opportunity for both each game. Maybe a horde and a lykanis/alpha is the way to go.
It seems strange to me when people insist that a Sp9 nimble unit should be judged on damage output, especially in a shambling and generally slow army like Undead,

[DarkBlack]

@TastyBagel

Battle 116 was against Rob and his Ravenous Halflings.

A tough list and a tough opponent.

Those nerve checks and getting the drop on your lycans like that is rough.

I think that you would have done better if you didn’t spread out so much. Try concentrating your force such that anything that kills one of your units will take a charge in response. You will not always be able, but trying to will help you to be in good positions.

Another tactic worth considering for werewolf/lycan hordes is in the second line. Especially if there isn’t space to threaten flanks and dodge arcs.
Being fast nimble and able see over infantry helps lycans/werewolves charge around your units and look for sneaky charges as the game gets messy. Alternatively it protects them so that they can finish off weakened enemies or grab objectives in the late game.

[TastyBagel]

These posts are touching on a lot of ideas that have been swirling around my head, but that have been hard for me to put into words. I think seeing these ideas in rapid succession helped, and things have been percolating for a few days now, so hopefully I can make some better sense of my thoughts here.

It seems strange to me when people insist that a Sp9 nimble unit should be judged on damage output, especially in a shambling and generally slow army like Undead,

I’d 100% agree. I think Lycans, Werewolves, the Fallen, maybe even Scorchwings and other speedy units are not hammers, and are being judged in ways they should not be.

Obviously, positional advantage is harder to discuss as it is has so many more variables to consider. However, I think even the positional discussion eventually gives way to discussions on damage dealin’, as you need to put your advantage to use in a combat. I think of something like KoM Mounted Scouts for me from a few years back, where I would go through a lot of effort to get them into clever places, and then get the flank/rear charges I was looking for, only to have them contribute nothing and the combats fail. Since the Lycans and such will be trying to make charges in-game, their damage output does matter do a degree. However, since it is not a big scary hammer unit, their output should be less of a focal point that it tends to be in most discussions.

I think my future reporting will try to emphasize the options I try to give these units, what my opponent does in response, and then trying to evaluate whether those were good tactics to pursue. That’ll be case-by-case and turn-by-turn, but I think centering my efforts there instead of math would be helpful as I continue to explore this style of unit.

It’s rare for both flanks to have space to nimble around things, perhaps there isn’t enough opportunity for both each game.

I think this is the crux of everything bouncing around my head. It’s easy to say “this unit needs to get flank charges” but I feel like that is so hard to consistently do. It’s rare to have a bananas drop advantage, so it’s harder to catch someone out with a late unit of unopposed and outriding Lycans. Additionally, I feel like most scenarios are forcing players to spread out as well, so even if you do get the Lycans out on a wing, it’s still going to be hard to get them past/around/behind/through enemy lines to where it can be charging from an ideal position.

In short, the Lycans and such are a support unit that needs to be getting flank/rear charges in order to have good damage output, but these charges are hard to currently achieve consistently. Since they are getting ideal charges and situations so infrequently, the unit becomes even harder to evaluate in any nuanced context, and so discussion veers towards damage output and “these are bad hammers” instead of “we’re using these wrong.”

Maybe a horde and a lykanis/alpha is the way to go.

I’m going to go overboard with the Lycans for my next few Herd games, but suspect you and @Boss_Salvage are on the wiser path here with the “pillowy” Lycans. Since one is paying a lot for the speed of Werewolves and Lycans, I think taking fewer hordes would likely make things smoother overall. The other points can go into actual combat units, and you only need to worry about getting your one speedy horde into clever positions. Additionally, a Brew of Strength would boost the output of that unit, making flank charges even more effective, but also letting you get a little more out of the unit if the board is crowded and you can’t quite find those flanks. That seems like a wiser, more calculated approach to running a unit like this, so I’ll be the contrarian and sprint in the opposite direction for a bit.

Another tactic worth considering for werewolf/lycan hordes is in the second line. Especially if there isn’t space to threaten flanks and dodge arcs.

That “deterrence” approach probably works best and easiest for the heroes, as you are taking a tried-and-true tactic for nimble, square-based heroes and adding more speed.

However, deterrence could definitely be something for the hordes as well depending on the match up, the rest of one’s own list, and how patient you are. Given the points already made above here, you might be on to something, using these as late-game outriders, instead of early game ones.

Lots and lots to think about!

[Boss_Salvage]

@TastyBagel reading the new report, but wanted to toss this at you before I closed the tab:

Dash28 Live Battle Report: 2022 US Masters Round 1 - Keith Conroy vs Patrick Zoro Allen

^ Dash28 Live Battle Report: 2022 US Masters Round 1 - Keith Conroy vs Patrick Zoro Allen

[TastyBagel]

Thanks Boss, you beat me to my own update! This dumb year of 2025 is not slowing down in the slightest and it’s been a nutty couple of weeks hot on the heels of a nutty couple of months. Catching up slightly on my forum-posting here, semi-recently, I got in Battle 117 against the Brothermark in Control.

Cartwright continued iterating on his own Penitent-play, but ran more of a combined arms list this time, including three Heavy Arbalests, and dropping to just two supporting Phoenixes.

I ran the Herd, drawing inspiration from Keith Conroy’s 2020-2021 lists, of which the 2021 version won US Masters. In that vein, I was using Lycans, a Spirit Walker horde and Flying Beasts, as well as the Avatar of the Father to just try and be aggressive.

• Lycans were fun, but the game really showed why you want to give them waver-mitigation items. The hordes and items were good, and the regiments were ok, and worth playing around a bit more with.
• Beasts and the Avatar were all good, though I don’t think I was nearly aggressive enough with them.
• Alpha Strike was a hard style to play, but should really reward good positioning and threat assessment. I think ideally, from Round 2 onward, this kind of list should be able to charge anything it wants to. But, in order to do that, I need to be advancing more in my Round 1, whether I’m going first or second. A challenging playstyle for sure, but a decent first attempt at it.

Prior to the game, I did not do a lot of due diligence. There were a few threads here, and here with some light discussion. But as Boss notes, there were actually videos of the 2021 event. Keith stayed on the top tables so we see lots of the army, but the coverage isn’t as comprehensive as I would have liked, since the video bounces between several tables, and the commenters aren’t even sure what unit it what half the time. The final game was more helpful though, and there was also a nice Dash28 video of a UB game that was very insightful, as well as the Counter Charge Herd episode, which puts a lot of his thoughts into context alongside the rest of the army. I intuited things pretty accurately, but these other sources are helpful, and we’ll see what else I may stumble upon as I play around with this for the next few Herd games.

[DarkBlack]

@TastyBagel

Battle 117 against the Brothermark in Control.

Thank for the report, that was a wild game.

The fast herd looks great, though it is a playstyle that takes some getting used to.
Add high damage hammer unit might help though.

I think you would do better if you concentrate your force more. By force I mean your damage dealers. Have the delay troops and flankers spread out, but the hordes working together on one target area of the battlefield.
You didn’t need all those unit on the left and most of the spent a turn heading right anyway.