All good @Mitch_novem. It is hard to have fun when your opponent isn’t, so I appreciate you being open and vocal on the day. I hope we ended the day on a better note and that this week is treating you better.
That thread has a lot of good advice and ideas so far - I’ll try to add my two cents to that later today. Whatever you run, I’m looking forward to seeing you across the table again soon.
I think the skipped turn was so arresting because the list you played had 24x 18" shots that could start cooking chaff and 2x Sp 4 infantry that needed to get their stubby legs moving if the goal was to hold tokens (and that’s gotta be a strong part of their job description). It did feel like the best reason to completely pass was because @TastyBagel put the brain work of opening the game on you, in which case I can respect just flat refusing 
Having played them for 18+ months of 2E, Sallies are a weird army that historically have struggled to arrest the momentum of the game. I think 3.5E Sallies are better positioned to do this than ever, thanks to all the 18" shooting and decent maneuverability (i.e. Scorchwing and Phoenix buffs in addition to the existing mid-range options), and my attempts in the other thread have mostly been around building in that 18" game and ensuring there’s the chaff to deliver the dedicated hammers.
My schedule has still been bonkers, but I was able to sneak in some games against @Cartwright recently.
Our first game of the day was Battle 034 with Push for the Scenario. I was trying out some Abyssal MSU, where I don’t take anything too expensive nor anything larger than a regiment. My list had some neat ideas, but this list attempt struggled a bit against the Northern Alliance, who brought two Snow Troll hordes, two Cavern Dwellers and a Frost Giant. 
Still, I had a great time rolling some dice. Thanks to my opponent for the game!
Great game and report. The seductress opening move was clever and completely caught me off guard, though in retrospect it didn’t accomplish much because the flamebearers didn’t have enough firepower to really make me pay. Still, lesson learned for next game.
With hordes and regen, my list was more forgiving. I felt like you had to do everything exactly right to win, and one missed flank or bad roll put you in a tough spot. I picked off a few units early to even the odds, and then didn’t need to worry too much about what you could do back. Let’s see if those lessons hold for round 2…
Thanks for the report! I feel for your efforts to make MSU Abyssals work, to a greater or lesser extent this is how I’ve been trying to run my own daemons, except I’ve got 2-3 Lower Abyssal hordes to soak damage and less of the really good stuff (no Abyssal Fiends, just one Seductress). I wrote a little bit on my blog about struggling to find the hammers in Abyssals, and I think you felt some of that here. Tortured Souls are just kind of not good, regs are thick chaff at best but even then they’re pretty slow and pillow fisted at the same time.
If you’re willing to bend your no-horde rule, it would be great to shove a Nv sponge in there. I’m pretty down on Molochs but a horde could give you a pseudo-anvil that can also punch (and is taller than all that H2, which is a nice thing to have for comboing and playing the chaff game).
Yes, I remember reading some of that commentary in a few of your reports @Boss_Salvage. I was indeed feeling that here! 
A warlock or something with Bane Chant could help a bit in a future version (I’ve like Zaz the Betrayer in some other games), but it also seems a little rough to be buffing smaller regiments only.
Running the “regiments-max” playstyle is just a personal ambition of mine that I return to from time to time. It’s just more fun pushing more units around the board for me.
I had heard really good things about the Tortured Souls online, but I have struggled with them. They are not really maneuverable, are not really speedy, and are not hitting particularly hard most of the time. They are just hard to use and I haven’t quite figured them out yet. I think retaining a unit or two as big chaff could work in a future version, but yeah, I have not cracked these yet.
I’ve had some decent success with Molochs in more normal lists. There I am trying to shoot in the early turns with Flamebearers and then close with the Molochs, which has worked out ok before. Their lower defense is a bit of a bummer, but I’d agree that they are one of the few smashier units the Abyssals have.
This was a tough game, but I felt like I learned a lot, and I was pretty happy with my Seductress tech. That didn’t pay off this game, but will be nice to have in the arsenal for the future. We got in one more game on the day, and the report for that should be up sometime tomorrow. Cheers!
And our immediate rematch in Battle 035 is now posted. My opponent had dropped the Frost Giant for some Huscarls, and my Flamebearers were regiments now, but I had already shown my hand with the Seductress + Enthrall trick, and I was still up against a sturdy NA list.
Despite our combined efforts, we look to have dropped a full round during play, skipping from Round 2 right to Round 4 in our heads, thus speeding the game up a bit. I was trying out a new template for battle report notes, and uh… yeah… I did not make good use of it this game! Still, it was a grand time. Thanks to @Cartwright for the games!
Great report, all 5 rounds of it 
I feel like your Tortured Souls were listening to us badmouthing them
Also your Abyssal Champ could have been an Abyssal Warlock in a heartbeat, I’m very used to seeing them anchor Flamebearer regiments in Abyssal lists. Between the support magic and shooting and scoring and so on.
Ah, I didn’t realize we dropped a turn. That’s a bummer, though I don’t think it would affect the outcome. You did the MSU well here–swarming me and putting pressure on flanks/rears by late game. The tortured souls did a ton of work at the end of the game here. You thoroughly outplayed me. There were a few nerve rolls (fiend, gargoyles) that hurt my plan, but I don’t think they ultimately mattered in the big picture. I was so worried about the flamebearers that I came after them without really thinking through any other part of the game. Maybe I should invest in veil of shadows for the next matchup? NA doesn’t have much fast cav to pressure shooters other than maybe tundra wolves (de4).
Ooo, that is a good point on the Warlock @Boss_Salvage! I may need to seek out a model or two now. Thanks for the tip!
Yeah, the Tortured Souls looked deep down and finally got some good things done for me this game, but they are still just so awkward to use. We’ll see if I can figure anything out with them over the next few Abyssals games.
I think the scenario did me some big favors @Cartwright. In this case I think rushing the Flamebearers was the right idea, as those are the scariest things in the list if left untouched, but it just didn’t work out here. The NA movement phases were always complicated with Wavers, and the Insane hold of the Gargoyles just put your advance even further behind.
Tactically, I think this was a job for Snow Foxes. I don’t think either of us appreciated just how much damage the Snow Trolls were going to take though. Advancing everything while getting the Snow Foxes out a few inches in front to be sacrificed would have given the Trolls cover, and made my life harder.
Otherwise, strategically, yeah, dabbling in Veil of Shadows, adding in more screening Foxes, or just having your own shooting regiments all would have had this play out differently. Regimental shooting had much better performances on the day.
Jumping in with the abyssal reports, but I am chewing through the rest from the start.
Thanks for sharing, it’s a fun read.
These last two were interesting for me because I have a soft spot for abyssals (I started KoW with abyssals) and your lists are vaugely similar to my dwarf list, which is also MSU and relies on shooting (nudge, wink).
Two differences, though, is that I am fond of “versatile units” (i.e. that have ranged attacks and combat ability) and I have second line damage dealers (not a lot of damage, they’re there to finish things off).
I think your abyssal list could benefit from the latter.
You seen to struggle to deal enough damage, which seems to be a danger with MSU, so I think a combat capable unit would help your list.
It’s worth noting that you fared better in the game where you concentrated your shooting and got good damage on a few units.
Bane chant might help too.
Oh, wow, I missed that post. Thanks for the link @DarkBlack! I might have more thoughts for that thread later, but that was a fun read.
Dwarfs are obviously on the slow side, but with great stats and the throwing mastiff option, they looked like a very fun army for MSU. I picked up 60+ Mantic dwarf minis second-hand over the last few years, but just haven’t been able to bring myself to start hobbying on an entirely new army yet. Your list and approach really resonates with me though. The “nothing fancy, we’re a bit of a backwater” was how I approached my Empire in Warhammer. It was fun and fluffy, though not how that game was intended to be played. I didn’t win many games.
I have not explored MSU too much with the Abyssals quite yet, but would agree with your assessments so far. The Flamebearers have been nice in just about any list I’ve run, but they need about three regiments focusing to be really dangerous, and the melee damage output for the army has been a big issue. Abyssal Guard and Tortured Souls haven’t been used consistently well, so aren’t delivering quite as I had hoped they would. I think Bane Chant (probably via Warlocks) would be a good addition to a future attempt to help, but I think the list also needs some refinement. With everything needing to work together, list building, deployment, etc all need to be a bit better than what I usually bring to the table.
I appreciate the feedback and the dwarf report! That looks like a very fun and rewarding list to field.
It is indeed. Took some getting used to, but I figured it out and refined it.
A key realisation was that I have lots of unit strenght and even durability, but needed damage output (hence an organ gun and extra sharpshooters instead of things like Lords on Large Beast or Juggernauts).
I think you’ll find the same with your abyssals.
What might also be worth a try (not sure it’ll work though) is drain life. Adds damage AND durability.
Thank you for the kind words!
If you like my reports it may please you to hear that there’s another one coming to that thread in the next day or two.
You can also find my reports from some time ago here:
https://www.kowforum.com/t/follies-of-fools/1498
Thank you for sharing! That new report looks to be up and will go great with my coffee this morning. 
Drain Life intrigues me, but I’m not sure it pairs well with the Abyssals. I think that would pair better with higher defense units, but we’ll see. I’ll probably try it just to try it at some point now that the idea is in my head.
Looking forward to reading the reports and seeing what I can learn!
Warlocks can see over infantry, so it’s easier to cast (also lets me shoot at then though).
It may well be viable for abyssal guard, but not lower abyssals and flame bearers.
It definitely shows the value of wound recovery…
I lucked out and got a weekday game in against @Cartwright, debuting my arctic Herd against his Brothermark in a game of Loot. The report can be found here. I wanted to use some of my older models for the first outing of the army, so I ran a horde of Spirit Walkers supported by Longhorns and other more “tribal” units. The Herd is a bit of a glass cannon and so requires some extra finesse, but it can apply pressure very quickly.
My opponent made some great use of some Penitent spam, and his Bowmen with Phalanx were also a bit of a headache for me. It’s not mentioned in the report, but he’s got a new Phoenix that quietly supported his efforts each turn, and is painted up nicely.
Thanks to my opponent for fitting this in. It was a great time and I learned a lot about a new army!
Another good game against a new army! The longhorns were really solid units and caused some fits. Having the gur panthers all get wavered in a single turn took what was a close start to the game and blew things wide open. If those wavers didn’t happen, I think you win your left flank quickly and manage to contest the center token for the win.
The last time I tried penitent regiments, you shot them all off the table with flamebearers. This was a better matchup for me for sure. Similarly, the bowmen with phalanx were made for a game where they can camp a token and rain 3-4 wounds a turn on low defense Herd units.
For a quick effectiveness check: the two Rs of Abyssal Hunt cost 230pts each and did a total of 65 wounds (32.5 each). The Bowmen were 165 pts and did 19 dam. The phoenix was 175pts and 22 dam. The monster slayers are 255pts and did 23 dam.
The 3 siege artillery? 270pts total and did only 21 dam.
From a cost effectiveness standpoint, they’re pretty much in the middle of the pack of damage output. I like them for three reasons: (1) they project threat across the board and create a sense of urgency; (2) opponents tend to over-rate them and make quick moves to avoid them; and (3) because I’m not all that good at the game, I figure a high-variance unit probably gains me more by the occasional lucky roll that otherwise makes up for poor decision-making on my part. My 2c: I think you should largely ignore them and not worry too much. They’ll take off a unit or so during the game, but they rarely earn their points back.
Thanks for the report.
Two aggressive armies getting stuck right in.
Only having 2 bits of difficult terrain that don’t look very big is definitely hard on The Herd.
Just one piece of flat difficult would have made a big difference for you.
If you’re running tribal trappers; have a look at the formation.
Ensnare makes the tribal trappers in a terrain piece a potential solid point in a low De army.
The deadly snares rule is wonderfully thematic and surprisingly effective too.
Getting those analytics is just so neat @Cartwright. Kudos for tracking and sharing. Did the Phoenix math account for the Cloak of Death? That wasn’t a big thing this game, but was clipping a few units here and there as well.
I thought I could take the two artillery pieces on the flank real quick (I three things that could get charges in against them in Round 2), but it was not to be. Dice were dice and the Exemplar countered way harder than I was expecting them to. That is something more unique to the Brothermark, so it was nice to see those combat heroes contribute.
I have done a mediocre job at getting formations and unique units onto the table, but the Silent Hunt is a solid suggestion @Darkblack! I have worked up a few more Herd lists to test and squeezed the formation into a few of them. I was too aggressive with the Trappers here. With such low defense I shouldn’t be charging them into combats if I can help it. I’ll try to play them more conservatively in the future, and we’ll see how the Silent Hunt performs too! Thanks for the suggestion. I am looking forward to messing around more with the Herd!
Yep, the COD was accounted for with the Phoenix. I’ve been a big fan of the ancient Phoenix lately and am trying to work it into more lists. 175 points for us 1, fly, heal 5, 18" shooting, regen, cod/rol is a bargain IMO. It was fun to match up against a new list. Glad you’re always willing to try something new! I don’t know that I could keep track of running so many different armies…
