The Herd in 3ed, what happened?!

The Herd list in the 3ed looks quite a bit strange to me. OK, I have anticipated that the army may change but the new mix of “beastmen”, verdant and earth elemental beings seems weird. We will have to see how it will work army wise but personally, I am not a fan …

Come on, Mantic, where are the iconic units like Stampede and Great Totem. Where are Great eagles. What is the reason they are no longer available in the army.

And one more point. I do not get the purpose of the Wild gur panters (formerly known as Beast pack) in the new army list. Their troop unit is just 5 points cheaper than Harpies now. Both units have the same footprint, practically everything the same, the only difference being the Harpies getting Fly and 2 more attacks. Why would anyone take the panters instead of harpies for just 5 points less.

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I’m going to moan about this for a week or so and then move on.

Like I’ve said in another thread, I was underwhelmed. It feels like a much blander list. The first Uncharted Empires list felt interesting and exciting.

The lack of straight up minotaurs irritates me. I personally find minotaur chariots a goofy idea. Rather than being the apex warrior, they’re beasts of burden.
My suspicion is that it’s a catch all unit to allow you to field minotaurs, beast chariots and stampedes.

It does feel that I’m fighting the list now to field my miniatures. I can stick my herdstone in the middle of a horde. I can put all the stuff with out a unit into the minotaur chariots. I can make eagles, brutox, minotaur lords all beasts of nature. I can ally in giants etc. But it’s not as easy, as fun or as interesting as it was.

Some preliminary thoughts:

Can the Varangur list represent my army better than the Herd?

Some of my best wargaming was had under the Ravening Hordes book which absolutely stripped down lists.

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Many thanks @MarkG or your comments. You express very nicely how I feel too.

I also share share your thoughts on the minotaur chariots. Exactly the idea I got when I looked how I could fit stampede in the new herd. I do not like it at all but it is an option. The lack of the Great totem in the list is more perplexing as it was something that made the herd army different from the GW beastmen, at least at the time when the Uncharted empires were released in the 2ed. The totem can still be found at one pictute in the new supplement, so it is not completely gone, just the unit is missing in the army selection.

I hoped Mantic would go in a direction of making the herd more a fairytale beastmen army by introducing more satyrs, fays etc. The merger with the verdant and earth units does not appeal to me. Maybe I could see the verdant part fitting somehow but earth, by Kyron, why earth? :cry:

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It is an odd decision - I never played Herd but played against them a fair bit. Neither Eagles nor Stampede felt overpowered. Blizzard/Shooting and blocking with chaff heroes to strip TC respectively worked fine to counter them.

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It’s not that odd as Mantic don’t make miniatures for those units. They understandably want us to buy Mantic FoN minis.

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The issue for Mantic is, while I’m no GW fan (far from it), I’m likely to go and pick up their forest stuff.

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It will be interesting to see how much love the theme lists get in the annual Clash of Kings book.

A shrine of nature or something like it could do the job as a herdstone/great totem.

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That’s exactly my impression too. Though, I would say minis produced by Mantic, not necessarily FoN. The name change from Beast pack to Wild gur panthers is telling. However, as I said in my OP I really question if anyone will buy and use the panthers in the Herd army when the Harpies are definitely a much better choice for just 5 points more. :laughing:

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I am considering proxying Northern Alliance, the Space Marines of Mantic with my Herd just to stick it to the man :wink:

They do what my v2 herd list did, just better, and if you want you can just ally in whatever you need to get whats missing…

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It’s not that odd as Mantic don’t make miniatures for those units. They understandably want us to buy Mantic FoN minis.

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This.
Its easy to see that 3rd was about making the lists mostly on the miniatures that Mantic makes, with few exceptions. Mammoth instead of Beast of War, that’s why no shooting. Treeherder as the Herds titan. Its nothing about balance. Its sales.
Period.

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The more I hear about 3rd edition the more it sounds like Mantic are trying to slowly back track on supporting none Mantic model forces… by reducing the lists for such forces.

An out and out squatting would be too obvious and cause too much negativity, best way to do it is to make the force lists seem unappealing.

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Hi I am new here, but I kind of agree with the general sentiment.

It’s not that any of the lists in uncharted empires are over or under powered, I think they have worked hard on balancing, its just that the themes are weird and mini-selection difficult.

I am having a hard time conforming my old Herd
miniatures into the new lists.

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Wheeeeeeeew, man I have so many things to say, let’s see if I can keep it focused …

The first thing to note is that Mantic’s Herd is more akin to Narnia, while GW’s Beastmen are Chaos marauders. Whether this informed the units available to it or grew out of Mantic’s allocation of resources is anybody’s guess. But onward.

I really dig the new Herd list. I also really dug the old Herd list … which frankly the new Herd list is a lot like, except without the Stampede crutch and super efficient Shaman. I hated the Stampede, because it was an Obviously Good Unit in the GW style, where you’re purposely kneecapping yourself by not taking it, and TFGing it if you take 2+. And yes, I’ve killed plenty of them, typically by trapping them with chaff, but that’s what every Herd game (the few I got to play, the army is not particularly popular, and I’m a Sally player!) came down to, killing the Stampede. Also if you look at the Stampede’s profile, and look at how units have been toned down in 3E (look at Brock Nv drop, look at the global decrease in CS/TC with the addition of hill charging for +1TC), I think you can see that the unit you end up with is pretty much either a Minotaur Chariot horde or a Guardian Brute horde. 3E has removed many redundancies, and once the Stampede was rebalanced, I feel like it became redundant - PLUS Mantic doesn’t likely want to make minis for such a unique, easily-represented-by-toy-animals unit. Obviously they’re looking to get the most use out of the number of sculpts they already have or are able to produce.

It’s weird to see the Great Totem gone - but come on dude, that’s so a Herdstone, staple of GW’s Beastmen for a long time now - however what did it do, grant Rally (2) and inspire? Have you noticed the decrease in Rally in the game? Sure, it could have still projected Rally around the board, that could be a cool thing … but it might be working against a general de-Rallying in the larger game. All the other terrain-style units in the game stayed tho, so seems like a miss. Unless the point was to distance from Beastmen (who just got an official Herdstone mini!)

Great Eagles, following the plan we see across all Mantic armies, would now need to be Scorchwings. Clearly fire doesn’t have a place in this Herd version (because Earth / Trees), so one assumes they were dumped because there’s no plans to make a second, very similar flying cav unit. Hot Take: What if Herd got Air elementals instead of Earth? Bam, there’s your Great Eagles. But no, it’s Earth instead (I’m guessing the RC felt that the low Def but higher Sp Herd would benefit more from a hard, slow anchor than a (fairly redundant) low Def high Sp light hammer). They wouldn’t have gotten Water (TR + Brohood) or Fire (Sallies), but Earth (Dwarfs) is ‘taken’ too? Air is actually the odd one out (I could have missed it tho).

Wild Gur Panther troops do feel a bit redundant against Harpies troops … but maybe those were specifically included so y’all could use your beast packs / warhounds?? Everybody who played Chaos mortals or beasts in WHFB had these units, and honestly this feels like Mantic throwing y’all a bone. As for internal balance, I’mma go out on a limb and say Panther regiments are probably where you should be looking. 3E seems to love nimble light cav (I’m skeptical they play out on the table but many armies got these buffed or added as regs), and Harpies do not regiment.

Minotaurs seem very well served as Minotaur ‘Chariots’ - at only Height 3 this is basically a, well, a stampede of minotaurs! And weren’t y’all using minos as a unit called “Guardian Brutes”? Brutes are still in here, guys, except better! I honestly don’t get the angst there.

I’m surprised nobody brought up the Avatar of the Father being gone. Personally, I like Moonfang much more, however I agree, they aren’t all the comparable. I don’t have a great answer there, but I also don’t know the Herd’s lore at all, if there’s a clue in there. Maybe it’s something to do with Mantic, again, not having resources for one-off monsters or units? Moonfang is, after all, both smaller and a Lycan, so is easier to produce new or upgrade from existing (eww).

I’m also low key surprised nobody is praising the changes to infantry, which I think are great. I was interested in Longhorns before, now they’re pretty immense! Previously all I ever saw were Spirit Walker hordes, and maybe a token Longhorn regiment (because peeps had bestigors around) or lil’ shooty troops (Trappers now).

Lycan spam too is alive and well, I know several pure Lycan lists that simply got better with the Alpha points drop + Moonfang.

In the end, I do really feel for the Herd players who have to rebase their models or had units wholly invalidated (looking at the Avatar and Totem primarily; I haven’t found a great replacement for Great Eagles, but maybe the answer is allied Sallies? Rhinosaur horde + Scorchwings? Wholly crap, did somebody say Stampede??) However I think the list is interesting and has legs (hooves) in a way that the 2E one didn’t really, at least when it comes to variety. In my experience, 2E Herd armies relied on going hard on the most efficient units (stampedes, chariots, spirit walkers, harpies, centaur chiefs, shamen) or straight up spammed lycan :zipper_mouth_face:*

*There was a time I was going to make one of these too :sweat_smile:

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@Boss_Salvage, I give it to you that you make a very valiant defense of the Mantic decisions concerning the new look of the Herd. Not that I agree with everything you wrote but I appreciate your comments. I have a few more notes.

First of all, your post seems to assume that people not falling behind the new army theme are too affected by their GW beastmen background. I can speak only about myself but for me it is the opposite. I have come to KoW when the Old word was destroyed but I have never liked the GW beastmen because of them being part of the chaos armies. My view has always been that the beastmen are nature beings, not creatures twisted by chaos. In the Old world my only army was Tomb Kings but when I switched to KoW I immediately fell in love with how the Herd army was composed by Mantic. Part of it was that lycans offered me a way to use my old Rackham wolfen, so I was running the lycan spam list complemented by beast packs, a regiment of spirit walkers and one horde of stampede. Was it overpowered, not at all! My other Empire of Dust army was simply stronger and more reliable but I like to play with what appeals to me. The 2ed Herd list did, I am not sure the 3ed theme will, though my lycans can still run wild, maybe even better now thanks to Moonfang. I do like the introduction of this special character and lowering the cost of lycan alpha (though, his stats dropped a bit), no question about that.

For me the stampede and totem were the iconic units of the army. The Avatar of the father not so much and those who have it can still use it as Beast of nature now, so I have no regrets about a disappearance of this particular unit. Were stampede good, sure, the unit was excellent. Were they breaking the game. Not at all! The herd army has never been in a top tier in 2ed and each army may have something good and special. OK, they could have been toned down but their complete removal from the list is hard to swallow. The army just does not feel the same without them. Representing them by Minotaur chariots does not appeal to me. I am sure the army could have been designed to keep both, the chariots and stampedes, as distinctly different units.

Whatever can be said about balancing the game, my impression is that Mantic just wants players to use miniatures they produce and the 3ed has removed many units that were out of their scope. When the Old world exploded Mantic was rushing to get out the Uncharted Empires supplement to attract the players of the other game system. Now, when many of those players are playing KoW, it leaves a bad taste when the company is removing their old toys from their armies. Well, in fact the stampede and totem were introduced by Mantic, I do not recall any Herdstone at the time UE were released in the 2ed.

Finally, @Boss_Salvage you must be joking about the Wild gur panthers by saying that Mantic is throwing us a bone here. I dare to call it a blatant mistake in design in either of the panthers or harpies troop profiles. I guess we may see FAQ addressing the stats of one of those units pretty soon.

I do agree the changes to the beastmen infantry look nice on paper.

I may start a petition: Mantic, please, bring our beloved stampede and totem back! :smiley:

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Let me preface this with:

I am not a herd player.

My brother is, but he only had a handful of games in 2nd ed. I often times helped him with army comp and we did often discuss the list.

Now with that out of the way.
I think @Boss_Salvage pretty much hit all his points on the nose.
I feel for the herd players who lost their favourite unit(s), whether that is the stampede or what have you. Having put in all that effort customizing, and painting a unit just to have it removed, really sucks. There is no way around that.
That being said, I agree with Boss_salvage that if you want, you can still have them, in a 3rd ed manner. The minotaur chariots really is pretty much what the stampede would have been in 3rd ed. Otherwise I really like the idea of the Rhinosaur horde allies, should also work out swell.
I for one would have absolutely no problem should someone place down their stampede horde and just tell me before hand that the rules they are using are Minotaur chariots rules, but they are going to call it stampede during the game.

I also wholeheartedly agree that the list (at least to me) look a LOT more versatile than in 2nd E. And that in itself is a great thing. Hurrah for herd infantry!

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In a discussion of the 3ed Uncharted Empires on the DakkaDakka forum lord_blackfang makes an interesting statement that “The RC confirmed that they got a list of units to make rules for.”
I am not sure where he got this information, maybe on facebook (I am not there), but if it is true it invalidates any arguments that removal of some units were driven by the rules changes.

In fact, my understanding is that there was no stampede and no chariots among the units provided by Mantic for the Herd theme list. According to a post by @mattjgilbert we should thank Kris Kaspner (one of the playtesters) for inclusion of the Minotaur chariots that we can use now for a “merger” of those two missing units.

That being said (and despite me personally not liking the verdant and especially earth units joining the herd beasts) I am pleased that at least Mantic does work with the Rules committee and listens to them. That’s much appreciated.

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Aye, good to hear, and to know about the interaction of Mantic and the RC. For me this explains why Earth Elementals are in the Herd list, even if I’mma still argue about them being a hard anvil in a list that doesn’t really have one otherwise.

Also re: panthers being in the list when harpies are obviously better, I meant that it was a bone like Herd players have a clear, decent unit to use warhounds for, which like every beastmen player had in WHFB. Whiiiiich will also be getting Mantic models for, so maybe it’s coincidentally a bone :stuck_out_tongue:

that makes it sound like there is a set of Herd Minis on the pipeline, and the theme list was adjusted to fit those minis primarily. which honestly makes sense to me, if they have minis on the way. given that Herd shows up in the recent league of infamy product (as part of the wandering beasts expansion figures and herd scenarios), they may well have taken the opportunity given from needing to design a bunch of herd models for that to tackle a full Herd line. i’ve heard similar claims regarding Rhordia’s Halflings (including plans of a all halfling list), and halflings are getting a full expansion for League of Infamy as well.

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Oh have you not heard? It was my understanding that everyone had heard…

Sorry, could not resist a “herd is the word” joke. :slight_smile:

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Have you heard about the herd. Someone heard there will be new minis for the herd. :laughing:

@MithrilCoyote, thank you for a reminder about the League of infamy kickstarter. I am copying the herd related pictures here:


herdnew

I am not a fan of the warrior with the oversized hammer but the rest looks nice.

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